Author Topic: Manufaturing and Installing a Sliding Tumbler Safety on a Chambers Late Ketland  (Read 3013 times)

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Currently I am working on an English sporting gun, and thought it would be a nice touch to add a sliding tumbler safety to the lock.  I am using a Chambers late Ketland for the gun.  The bridle and sear screws on the back of the lock are quite close together, which presented a design challenge in adding the sliding safety.  A common safety design on English locks employs a sliding bar in a slot on the lockplate, with a stabilizing tab on the inside that engages a slot in the bridle.  Here are a couple of photos of a P. Bond lock on a pistol I have by that maker:





I have a pair of old German locks that were once very nice that have a much simpler yet effective safety that does not use a bar in the lock plate or a tab in the bridle, so I used them for my design.  The Brits will just have to forgive me!  Notice the fly in the center of the tumbler in the second photo:





Other than a few critical measurements I just made the parts to fit each other, mostly by "eyeballing" and trial fitting.  First is a photo of the tumbler as it came from the manufacturer:



The tumbler had to be modified to allow engagement of the sliding safety.  I filed a flat spot on the tumbler, removing enough material so I would have a solid solder joint below the point of engagement.  Then I cut a wedge of steel and filed it to fit the tumbler at two points and soldered the two together, then cleaned the assembly up with a file.











I marked and cut the slot for the safety engagement:









Next I began the process of manufacturing the safety and the activation knob assembly.   Hopefully the photos are pretty much self explanatory.  Everything is in the rough at this point:













Doing some file-fitting:





Sawing out the safety mechanism:





First dry fit:




I must apologize, I live in the boonies and my internet connection has been horrible since a storm blew through here a couple of days ago, so I will have to continue this thread later.  What should normally take an hour to post has taken about four so far....

Thanks for looking,
Curtis
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Ed Wenger

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1975
    • VAFlintlocks
Thatís some very fine work, as usual, Curtis.  Looking forward to the progress and end result!


          Ed

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4022
Hi Curtis,
That is looking very good. When you fit the bolt into the slot on the tumbler, make sure you allow a tiny bit of slop in the fit. You generally need that so that when you want to disengage the safety, you can pull the flintcock back a tiny bit so that pressure from the tumbler and mainspring is taken off the safety bolt allowing it to be slid backward without a lot of force. That will save a lot of wear on the bolt. Also, don't underestimate the force applied to the bolt by the tumbler when engaged in the tumbler notch.  That force is why British makers supported the other side of the bolt in a slot in the bridle.  Good luck.

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2436
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Leaps and bounds Curtis! Great work. On my bucket list.

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Shaping up to be a fine tutorial Curtis, enjoying your progress.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1695
Very tidy work Curtis.

Look forward to seeing it completed.
Are you making a new bridle?

We tend to see more bolted locks on rifles and pistols than sporting guns , but as you know, we cannot ever safely use the terms, "Never" or "Always"!

Look forward to updates....

R.

Offline SingleMalt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • One day I'll be considered a good builder.
Good idea and work, Curtis
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5618
Very tidy work Curtis.

Look forward to seeing it completed.
Are you making a new bridle?

We tend to see more bolted locks on rifles and pistols than sporting guns , but as you know, we cannot ever safely use the terms, "Never" or "Always"!

Look forward to updates....

R.

Outstanding project and workmanship but way too labor intensive for me
but so is just about everything else. ;D
Keep us in the loop if possible.
Bob Roller

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11016
  • AKA TimBuckII
 Neat idea, the hand work is not the only thing that is Well done, the Photography is outstanding. Look forward to seeing the next set, Thanks for taking the time to do this.

   Tim

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4202
    • Old Fox Trade Co.
Pushing the envelope again, eh?
Dave Kanger

A dedicated person with just a pocketknife can accomplish more than a lazy person with an entire toolbox.

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Really great Project. I'm Learning alot here. Thank you for taking the time post stepvise Pictures.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8242
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
 I converted a couple of locks to the sliding safety style before. I made mine like the English style and still have some conversion parts left over including a hundred or so detente springs.  It is a lot of work and requires a lot of knowledge about heat treating etc.  Congratulations you are now a master lock smith.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline brokenflint

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
Nice one Curtis.  Bring it to Bowling Green, I want to see it in person!
Good Journeys
Brokenflint

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5618
I have done one slip&slide safety and it was on a very small lock the had
a place indicated on the casting. I think it was marked Fenton.

Bob Roller

Offline Clint

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
Looks like it is going to work really well, Great work. I also like your hand vise.

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Hey guys, thanks for all your comments and advice!  I very much appreciate them all.

Dave (SmartDog), I understand what you are saying about the force applied to the bolt when it is in the tumbler notch, and will take your thoughts about leaving a little slop under advisement.  I think the English design is superior to this German one I am using and hope to build or modify a lock with a proper English setup someday.  That being said, the safeties on the old German locks still function almost as new, and it appears the locks have been around the block a few times, even after being converted to percussion.  I wish I could see the gun they were on originally!!

Pukka, not making a new bridle, it is not necessary with this particular design. 

Pushing the envelope again, eh?
You know it, I am still an adrenaline junky!   8)

...I made mine like the English style and still have some conversion parts left over including a hundred or so detente springs..... Congratulations you are now a master lock smith.
Far from a master Jerry, but having fun learning.  Are you thinking about ever selling some of those detente springs?  I would be interested in seeing a photo regardless.

Curtis
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Here is a closer look at the locks I got the safety design from:








Curtis
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Now for some additional photos of the lock mod!  I marked where I wanted the slot cut in the lockplate, then drilled three holes and sawed the excess with a jeweler's saw.  The slot was then cleaned up with a file and then I began fitting the safety bar.  I had to elongate the slot some after I took the photo to allow the safety to slide:







When the fitting was complete I roughed out the safety "knob" on the end of the bar:







After refining the external shape of the safety bolt by trial fitting, I drilled through the bolt body and the bar and pinned them together with a brad nail.



Next I cut some 3/32" 1095 spring steel and drilled a hole, then cut it close to shape and filed it to fit inside the sear spring.  I put a small washer underneath it to raise it up a bit.





Now I filed the detente on the spring.  I got the detente position slightly wrong, so I had to make a new spring and re-file the detente in the correct spot.  >:(  Second time around it worked!   I bent a slight downward curve in the spring, then hardened the spring and drew it back to a purplish blue.  Put it all together and YES!  It works like a charm!!  YAAAY!! ;D  ;D





OFF


ON




I filed some on the tumbler and the bridle until the tumbler rested on the bridle when the cock shoulder was resting on the lock plate. 



I had to slightly modify my lock inlet to allow for the tab on the safety spring.  My attempt at a full English lock inlet leaves a bit to be desired...



But at least the lock fits in the mortise!!  ...and the safety works when the lock is in place.



Thanks for looking!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 06:31:11 AM by Curtis »
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Nice one Curtis.  Bring it to Bowling Green, I want to see it in person!

I will certainly bring it along to Bowling Green, Brokenflint!

Curts
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8242
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
 Curtis. I probably have a hundred detente springs. Just a guess but you have t ohave a fixture to make the dipole in the spring. I could send you a photo of my jig. It is simple to make.  I also have a full size Twigg sporting rifle lock kit with the sliding safety from Blackley. PM me if your interested.   
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Ron Scott

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
Hi Curtis.  VERY NICE!  I could ask if any of the students from last years English Sorting Rifle seminar are interested in have you do theirs?  See you in a couple weeks.

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3596
  • I know nothing
Curtis,
You da man!  That is really cool.  I have always liked those sliding English safety locks.  After reading your tutorial, I might have to give it a go.  I don't have a specific project in mind but I always like a new challenge.  Dang, another distraction.
David   

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Socialist Republic of New York
Pretty darn cool. Nice job!!!!!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline J. Talbert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
Curtis,
Another fine project and documentation.
One question - with your soldering of the additional metal on the tumbler, was the soldering temp low enough to preserve the temper of the tumbler?

Can't wait for your next adventure!
Jeff
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic"  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Curtis. I probably have a hundred detente springs. Just a guess but you have t ohave a fixture to make the dipole in the spring. I could send you a photo of my jig. It is simple to make.  I also have a full size Twigg sporting rifle lock kit with the sliding safety from Blackley. PM me if your interested.

Jerry, I will send you a PM shortly, thanks.

Curtis
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing