Author Topic: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder  (Read 7364 times)

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2018, 10:01:58 PM »
I thought we were talking about fouling? That's the post you quoted.

As for MV? Were the kernels the same size in the Swiss and OE? Not what it says on the bottle but the actual size.

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2018, 02:32:01 AM »
The amount of fouling seems to be the same as far as the amount after the shot, however it does seem to be softer with OE. That can be attributed to humidity, lube, or pressure during the powder burn during the shot. I had to swab the barrel with Swiss and don't with OE. I use Angelus mink oil paste as lube. Maybe the lube keeps it soft. It's a made to treat leather but works great as a patch lube. The bore looks freshly scrubbed after the patch and ball are loaded. Swiss may be the same as I didn't change lubes until after changing to OE a few years ago.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2018, 05:53:39 PM »
My problem with OE is it's made by Hodgdon and I don't trust them. I've never felt that OE was a pure black powder product.

How can they get so much more power than regular Goex and do it so cheap? How can it have less fouling than Swiss?

Swiss shows exactly how they make their powder and what's in it for ingredients. Hodgdon doesn't.

OE may be all you say. What we don't know is how they do it. Is it black powder or is it a sub?

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2018, 11:17:39 PM »
Much of the cost could be import costs, tariffs or the like. Every ingredient used in its manufacture is contained in the MSDS. It’s required by federal law as an explosive. It real black powder.

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2018, 11:24:41 PM »
I won’t disagree with anyone that uses a different product than myself. I’m sure we are much the same in that we use what works best for out specific applications. If something doesn’t work for me I’ll find something else to spend my hard earned money on. I’m sure the same applies to you.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2018, 01:21:28 AM »
It does work and works good. I tried it when it first came out.

I just don't like cheating and i'm not convinced they aren't. If someone could convince me they aren't i'd gladly use it again. I'd always prefer to use an American product.

I haven't seen the MSDS. Is there anything in it saying secret ingredients in it?

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2018, 04:08:35 AM »
Lol, no, no secret ingredients. It has the same ingredients as regular Goex. I think they use different ratios of ingredients to make it hotter.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 04:15:24 AM by Joc7651 »

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2018, 04:12:48 AM »
Here it is. It's on the Goex website.


Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2018, 06:00:45 PM »
The ingredient that gives the powder the energy/power is Potassium Nitrate. OE uses less than Swiss. Yet, you get more power with OE.

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2018, 11:19:48 PM »
I don’t know what to tell you man. It is what it is. I’m not going to say it shot slower when it didn’t. Every rifle has a personality of its own. I don’t know why it’s that way but 3f OE is faster in my rifle than 3f Swiss. I’m not sure what you want me to say. Lol.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2018, 11:25:37 PM »
Nothing really. I was ready to drop this a long time ago but you kept coming back. So, I played along. :)

Joc7651

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2018, 05:43:48 AM »
If I came across rude or disrespectful that was not my intention. If that was how it seemed I apologize.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2018, 05:30:09 PM »
Not at all. I have pretty thick skin if you did.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2018, 09:01:57 PM »
Yes, but you also said OE has softer fouling than Swiss. If you saw the trouble Swiss goes through to make their charcoal. You wouldn't think the inexpensive OE could compete much less beat it.

Sir, I don't care how much trouble they go through with whatever step of their manufacturing process. My Caldwell chrono says I get higher MV with OE than Swiss. Less than 40 fps but still.  Period.

Your mileage may vary.

Velocity is not everything. There are other factors involved. Standard deviation for example. And accuracy. What are the group sizes? How many groups were fired in testing? How many loads tested. Does OE velocity vary from lot to lot?  Is one more corrosive than the other? Is OE graphited? Graphite is an age old way to make poorly made powder look better. Its also not combustible at the temps involved and increases the fouling and ejected solids from the muzzle. Is it more hygroscopic?  Finally unless they import it I do not believe they can get the right charcoal for a high end BP. Thus I suspect that if will out velocity Swiss with similar granule sizes/charge weights then I have to wonder what they added to the formula. Does it weigh more or less for the same volume of powder?

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2018, 05:56:15 PM »
The ingredient that gives the powder the energy/power is Potassium Nitrate. OE uses less than Swiss. Yet, you get more power with OE.
The Potassium Nitrate is just the oxidizer.
The Charcoal is the fuel.
How the charcoal is made, what it is made from, how long and how the three components are milled can  make a huge difference in how the powder performs. I find it interesting they use one MSD for all the powders. When I started shooting BP the only powder we could buy was military fuse powder packaged as sporting BP or in the case of the C&H being imported basically a blasting powder grind. It was impossible to get the ballistics from cartridge guns that would match the 19th c figures with the same charge weights. It had the wrong charcoal and was only milled to make the military spec for fuses and boosters. I suspect that the military is still their major market. For example, every hand grenade has a BP fuse.
To make a BP equal to the best being made in the era from the Civil War (at least) on requires the right wood, even cut at the right time of year, CAREFULLY charred, broken up, then milled with the other ingredients for a longer time than the lower grade powders.
If you read Ned Roberts "Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" you will find that the serious shooters only used a few powders, C&H Diamond Grain, Hazzards "Kentucky Rifle" and one or two others. In the late 19th and early 20th C as blackpowder was falling from use Dupont bought up and destroyed all the powder mills in the US. Since, SFAIK, Dupont never made a powder as good as "Kentucky Rifle" the premium powders vanished. Since the military became the main customer they built powder that would meet that spec. Which was not all that great. This remained until Swiss and the other European powders came to America. 
Now when I hear of people having blackpowder turn to soup in the pan while hunting, for example, I wonder if the rifle is clean (fouling will suck up water like sponge and wet any powder it touches, good blackpowder will not suck up enough water from the air to fail to fire. However, at Moosic for a long time Goex was using impure Potassium Nitrate. This did not change until the supplier went out of business. Impure PN will cause moisture issues.
Nor was it wheel milled to a particle size that gave best performance. While graphite allows a poorly finished powder to look better and will prevent clumping the the British military would not accept any powder treated with "black lead", graphite.  Remember that British War ships sailed all over the planet with ammo stored below the waterline. Powder that was not properly made would make the ship combat ineffective.
NOW consider this.
The powder made in the US at the time of the American Revolution was, by the standards of Swiss, generally very poorly made. It was almost all "stamp mill" (think giant mortar and pestle) mixed/ground powder and the use of presses and breakers was uncommon everywhere. In the mid 18th c a most powder was not press cake powder but simply forced through screens, by hand, to form the granules.
So almost any powder we can buy is superior to that used by Daniel Boone for most of his life.  So using Swiss is "not traditional" until at least the late 18th and early 19th c.
However, my Nock patent breech rifle will not function with a powder that forms flakes of powder fouling, in a shot or two it will fail to fire.  I ran in to this with Schuetzen when I tried it. So I only use Swiss FF.  I never bothered to try anything else. What does this tell me? It tells me for the 1787 Nock breech to work without any hair pulling a pretty good powder was needed. Better than much of what we buy to day. 
There is no easy answer to this. But I do wonder how GOEX can make a powder that is supposedly better than Swiss and sell it cheaper unless there is a significant tariff in the European powder.   
This is all knowledge based for the most part on research by the Mad Monk, Bill Knight, who over the years has been kind enough to share his finding with me.
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 06:15:19 PM »
Bill was kind enough to share them with me too.

Offline Herb

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2018, 02:39:53 AM »
I like Olde Eynsford 2F and 1 1/2F but not 3F.  Swiss is good, but I can get OE at Ft. Bridger.  Here are comparison targets shot with 100 grains (weight calibrated measures) of several powders in my .50 antelope rifle.  Swiss frequently shoots wide groups like here, just a matter of changing the charge to group better.  I did not have Swiss 3F to compare, and haven't shot good groups with OE 3F so didn't use it.  I was working up an antelope hunting load.

Here is OE 2F and 1 1/2F in my Bridger Hawken where I did some string cutting from bench rest at 100 yards.

The top target was to check my sighting.  It was dead center side to side.

OE 1 1/2F is my favorite in .50 and .54 calibers.

You can enlarge these pictures by holding down Control key and hitting the + key.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 02:43:35 AM by Herb »
Herb

rfd

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2018, 03:09:08 AM »
as long as i can afford it, which should be as long as they offer it, i load and shoot nothing less than swiss - 3f for the trad muzzys and 1-1/2f for the bpcrs.  the only powder i've tested that can come close to swiss is goex oe ... close, but no cigar.

Gary W.E.

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2019, 12:15:15 PM »
I believe guns shoot better with anything they like versus anything we like. My target rifle likes Swiss and it shoots better and cleaner. My target pistol likes Goex because it works good and is cheaper. (My pistol is fugal)

Offline hawkeye

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2019, 03:04:35 PM »
Swiss is top 1 black powder, shoot much cleaner than any other powder
not the cheapest ,but the best and consistently

Offline Gordy

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2019, 03:57:04 PM »
What's the opinions on Graf & Son Black Powder ? Actually it's Wano. They have producing it for quite some time so obviously there are folks shooting it..just curious ????

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2019, 09:18:06 PM »
You can't go wrong with either Swiss or O.E. (kinda like fighting over Ford or Chevy). As to Kik can't get people to take it as a prize on the blanket until the end. At my age with only fair eyesight for shooting, compounded that I only shoot flintlocks I stick with GOEX 3F.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2019, 10:02:30 PM »
Do you weigh powder charges, or use the stricken method?  If stricken, was the measure set or adjusted with GOEX, then you merely poured in the Swiss and expected the same weight? Did you actually weigh the powder thrown by the measure?

I used a measure that 'threw' 80gr. (weighed) of my current GOEX 2F, it threw 78gr. of my current GOEX 3F (weighed) and 85.0gr. (weighed) of my current 1 1/2F Swiss.

Same measuring tube threw 78gr. 3F GOEX----------- highest vel.
------------------------------------ 80gr. 2F GOEX-----------lowest vel.
------------------------------------ 85gr. 1 1/2F Swiss------in-between

Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2019, 10:35:36 PM »
The $$ of Swiss is well above my pay grade; OE is a substitute I can possibly handle. 
Price is important for me when it comes to ordering powder.  Goex works well for me, gives more accuracy than I can take advantage of and gives excellent velocity and internal ballistics.  I can't really see paying more for a powder that does essentially nothing more than a cheaper powder can accomplish.  I don't compete.  I can't see/shoot as well as I could years ago.  Killing deer at under 100 yards, informally shooting at paper targets at the range and rolling tin cans pretty much sums up my powder burning nowadays.  Yes, velocity is not the only important quality of a powder.  Accuracy is at the top, IMHO, when it comes to the most important characteristic of a powder.  So what works for my shooting might not work for someone else; guns are individuals, too.  The quality of various powder brands varies a good bit; just like automobiles.   

 
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Offline alacran

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2019, 03:19:02 PM »
I'm with you Hanshi.  Most of  the target competition I shoot is offhand. When I'm back east I shoot against a younger man who is a fine rifle shot. He has done very well at Friendship over the years. He uses Swiss 3f and Teflon patching. I use Goex 3f and bear lubed pocket drill.  Our aggregate scores are very close. Sometimes he bests me by 3 to 10 points, sometimes I best him by the same.  I don't think powder brands has a thing to do with  our results.
I have shot Schuetzen Powder with the same results.
I don't shoot crossticks much any more, but when I did I used Goex, and did very well with it.
A lot of it is between the ears. If you think you shoot better with Swiss nothing else will do.
I could never justify the price difference. There is a lot more to winning matches than the powder that you use.
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