Author Topic: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder  (Read 770 times)

Offline m1garand_man

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Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« on: June 06, 2018, 04:38:01 PM »
I'm about to make a powder order and before I do I figured I'd ask what you guys think about kik, and scheutzen compaired to swiss with regards to consistent charge weights, velocities and accuracy.

Thank you.

Offline EC121

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 06:46:44 PM »
No help on your question here.  I haven't run out of Goex yet.

Offline Sharpsman

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 07:14:48 PM »
I get excellent accuracy using KIK 2F!

Shoots great out to 200 yards through my .50 Flintlock and the .54 GRRW Hawken.
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 08:09:09 PM »
I regularly use Schuetzen just because I got a case of it cheap.  It shoots as good as Goex.  I usually use Swiss 2f in my long range gun, but didn't have any.  All my loads this year are Schuetzen 2f, so we'll see this weekend how it measures up.  Historically speaking, Swiss has less than 10 fps variation between shots which is why everyone uses it where that matters.
Dave Kanger

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Offline alacran

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 01:31:32 PM »
A while back Muzzle Blasts published an article that compared standard deviation for Scheutzen ,Goex. Swiss and others. The salient fact to me was that Goex 2f had the smallest standard deviation. I believe an ALR member wrote the article.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2018, 04:15:15 PM »
I shoot Swiss exclusively.
Swiss and even Goex is far better powder than almost anything made in the 18th c. Though powder used by the military was much more carefully controlled as to the ingredients. In high humidity a powder made with less than pure saltpeter will collect moisture from the air and effect its burn rate. If the ingredients are bad enough it can be unusable. Sailing for 3-4 months at sea and then having the powder not perform? The British would not accept powder coated with "black lead" Graphite.  Most of the powder made in the 18th c was stamp mill powder and was often not even pressed and broken but pressed through a screen, by hand, in its damp state to make "grains".  The great advance in powder making was in abandoning the stamp mills and using wheel mills and pressing the powder into cakes and then breaking it into granules. Pressing gave uniform density when done right which helped control he burn rate and made the powder more consistent if pressed uniformly.
The European powders, at last report, are made with much better charcoal. This is also important. Charcoal is the fuel and how its "burned" and what wood is used can have a great effect on the powder velocity production, fouling and shot to shot variation.
Now...
I have a 67 caliber rifle patterned after a English rifle circa 1810-1820. It has a Nock breech. If I shoot low grade powder it simply becomes unworkable. I have even had problems with Schuetzen. The problem is that a powder that produces flakes of fouling will drop a flake over the passage to the antechamber and powder will never be present at the vent. Required putting powder through the vent to get the rifle to fire. So I use Swiss. This tells me that by the 1780s (Nocks patent dates to the early 1780s would have to look up the exact year) the British must have had pretty good powder available to the landed gentry at least and by extension their military  so far as the fouling characteristics.
How much such powder may or may not have been used in the Kentucky rifle Circa 1780 is only a guess.....
So almost any powder we use today is in someway or another, usually in the milling and the use of retort charcoal, is "better" than what would have been used by Morgan's Riflemen for example. I just know that lower grade powders can't be used with my Nock breech and likely would cause issues with either of these and if a flake blocks the vent any plain breech as well.
Dan

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Offline Ghillie

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2018, 09:45:10 PM »
Try Goex Old Enysford.  I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a  pound less.  I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving.  The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer.  I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 02:01:17 AM »
Try Goex Old Enysford.  I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a  pound less.  I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving.  The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer.  I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.

There are several reasons I don't shoot Goex going back decades. Ingredients is only one.
Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 02:41:52 AM »
I shoot Swiss 1&1/2 and 2f mainly because I had problems with some GOEX back a few years ago and now have a supply of Swiss to shoot up before I try anything else. I know of more than a few bench shooters who switched back to swiss from Old E. for assorted reasons.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 04:35:02 AM by smylee grouch »

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 03:03:52 AM »
Iím shooting 3f Eynsford in my .50. I get consistency and an easy clean on the barrel. Itís priced reasonably too.

Offline Leatherbark

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2018, 03:09:22 AM »
FWIW my only comparison would be with Goex.  Back in the early 2000's I had a Blue Ridge .50 flintlock with a 39 inch barrel. I shot 80 grains of 3f Goex and a .490 ball patched in ticking with a grease lube.  The velocity was right at 1700 fps.  When I used 80 grains of Swiss the velocity was right around 1900 fps.  Never tried the KIK or the other one.

Bob
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 03:16:19 AM by Leatherbark »

Online snapper

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2018, 05:09:04 AM »
If  I  was just having fun and money was an issue, I would go with Goex.  If you are wanting and able to win matches I would use Swiss.

Now that does not mean that you cant win with Goex.

For me the cost difference does not matter, powder is one of the smallest cost I have associated with shooting ML.

In my opinion Swiss is the best, and that is what I use.

For feeding my shotguns, I will use whatever I got that I want to get rid of.

Fleener
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2018, 04:02:29 PM »
IMO, shooters using genuine black powder will find there are a lot of other things to consider long before they start looking at what brand of powder they are using in regards to shooting accuracy. The difference will be miniscule at best. And, to be quite honest there are so many factors in accurate shooting that I would look at first. Most shooters are looking for a substitute for practice, and sadly there isnít one.

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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2018, 08:54:47 PM »
IMO, shooters using genuine black powder will find there are a lot of other things to consider long before they start looking at what brand of powder they are using in regards to shooting accuracy. The difference will be miniscule at best. And, to be quite honest there are so many factors in accurate shooting that I would look at first. Most shooters are looking for a substitute for practice, and sadly there isnít one.

  Hungry Horse


Two thumbs up HH. Now ifín I were a sit down per-suction bench rest or X-stix shooter I might see a benefit to Swiss.  BUT as a 70 year old offhand flintlock shooter, I shoot Goex just fine thanks (plenty of Agg wins in state matches and 4 National Territorials).

And re that easy cleaning joke, they ALL need cleaning and between shots I just wipe and load.
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2018, 01:27:54 AM »
Over the past 55 years or so, I've used Dupont, Goex, Jacks Battle Powder (Goex) and Elephant.  Not being a match shooter, I have to say that they all served their purpose, shot accurately (with NO bench testing, though) enough to harvest game and hit small targets.  There was another one I did use way back; C&H, maybe and/or G/O.  My memory fails me on that one.  I haven't used Elephant in decades and have stuck with Goex powders, including JBP.  Next time I order I might try KIK, Schuetzen or another powder; price is a real issue with me.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2018, 05:37:28 AM »
Find little if any variation from lot to lot of Swiss. Canít be said for other manufacturerís powders. And then there is the additional cost of Swiss. Well, I find Swiss to be more energetic than others. Have not studied or compared it myself, but the word on the street is that you get 10 to 15% more velocity out of the same weight charge of Swiss than other powders. Reduce your charge weight until you get the same velocity as you do with other powders. More shots per pound if you are counting nickels.

Bottom line, at least for me, for the amount of time, money and effort I have invested into my muzzleloaders, the cost of powder is insignificant. I want the best of the best. Swiss is my choice.  I receive it in 25 pound boxes from Powder Inc when stock is running low.

Offline Gary W.E.

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Re: Kik, and scheutzen vs swiss powder
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2018, 01:04:13 PM »
I have tried several powders in my gun, but not Scheutzen. The powders seemed to very little in their performance, except in my gun over a long period of shooting. My gun really likes the Swiss powder because it burns so clean and is way less susceptible to fouling problems and misfires because of that. That is what makes the Swiss way better for me during a day full of shooting targets. Hope this helps