Author Topic: Finished my first rifle, on to the second  (Read 3169 times)

Offline Mike Lyons

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Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« on: June 12, 2018, 05:28:35 AM »
I just finished a TMV early Lancaster kit .45 cal.   As I was completing the rifle, I started liking the idea of building a more exact copy of a rifle.  I used a lot of reference pics from rifles on this one, but it's still a 1st rifle learning piece that is of my own design.   My plans now are to buy some plans and material of the rifle I want to build and study the rest of the summer.   I understand that the Lehigh rifles are challenging and I see some of the areas that are different.  A plank gun will give me a reason to purchase a bandsaw but I'm not sure I'm ready.  I'd rather my first plank be a southern bean rifle, so I already have a third gun in my sights.  Thank all of you for your advice, tutorials and help.  Also,  thanks to the ALR staff keeping this place going.  Although this hobby is extremely expensive, being a totally disabled vet that is unfit for public sometimes,  this has been an extremely therapeutic experience. I can't wait for muzzleloader deer season!!





















« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 05:33:56 AM by Afghanvet »

Offline Neven

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 05:31:07 AM »
Looks awesome

Offline Joe Schell

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 06:22:31 AM »
Looks real good for a first build.

Offline stubshaft

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 06:24:48 AM »
Looks great!
I'd rather die standing, than live on my knees...

Offline Carl Young

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 06:48:34 AM »
You have done well on your first build :) much better than I did. My college roommate was a paraplegic psychology major who taught me all of us are dealing with a disability of some sort or other, but there is nothing more therapeutic than overcoming obstacles. My first build left me with mixed emotions...pride that I built it from scratch (except lock), and later dissapointment that stubborness and ignorance kept me from doing better  :-[

 Glad you found us and joined in!
-Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 12:00:30 PM »
A few years back I was encouraged by ALR members and some guys I shoot with that build rifles to skip the kit and build from a blank for my first build. I was glad I did! I learned a lot along the way. Judging by how your kit turned out you will do fine building from a blank. You can get by without a band saw also, or find someone that has one you can borrow for a few minutes.
Elizabeth, PA

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Let's Go Brandon!

Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 02:54:15 PM »
100 times better than my first. Good looking flintlock.
Nothing beats the feel of a handmade southern iron mounted flintlock on a cold frosty morning

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 04:05:19 PM »
Looks REALLY good!  I am hoping that mine comes out as well. 

From a Vietnam Vet to an Afgan Vet - I know where you are coming from, and I am building one for about the same reason.  Built many of the "other type", but they didn't have the challenges that a replica flintlock has.  I am building a Lehigh Rupp rifle.  Got enough to really keep my mind occupied.  And if you want to borrow my bandsaw, or come use it for a day, you are more than welcome.

Welcome home, my friend.


Craig
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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 05:03:27 PM »
You've done a great job and that's a rifle to be proud of. That gives me inspiration and encouragement as I get ready to move forward with building.

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 06:03:58 PM »
Great first build!!! - - Good on you Mate!!!! -

Offline TommyG

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 07:34:42 PM »
Afghan, that's a great looking first build.  I'd be real proud of it!!!  Don't be afraid to use a plank for your next, but I would have to agree with the Lehigh.  I plan on doing a Lehigh soon, maybe at gun #5 I would feel comfortable enough to pull one off.  Try and get your hands on some originals if you can.  The best study there is.  Once again - Great looking gun & Thank you for your service.

Offline Algae

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 02:14:15 AM »
That's a beauty, keep at it, the experience only grows!! ;D

And thank you for your service!

Al J.

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 12:35:51 PM »
That looks good. As I sit here and wait for the parts for my first gun, guns/posts like yours are, in some ways, more motivating than those done by the folks here with more experience and refined skills. I appreciate them too, they're works of art and they surely awe and inspire me, but sometimes I look at them and think, there's no freaking way I could ever do that, so why even bother. I know, I know... but I can't help thinking it.

Offline Mr. Bubbles

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 10:44:45 PM »
You did a very nice job for a first gun.  You are ready to build from a plank.

If you are really planning on doing a Lehigh for your 2nd gun I would advise you to do a LOT of studying first.  I would suggest you try to emulate the styles of a maker that you like, and basically duplicate what they did on some of their guns for your first one or two, right down to the carving and PB.  Moll and Rupp are fairly popular guns to do.  Eric von Aschwege has some detailed drawings for those, and Reeves Goering makes BP's and TG's for them.  The fit and orientation of the parts is very precise in Lehighs, as well as the architecture being tricky to get right.

But before you get going with the band saw, do a lot of fiddling around taking measurements of yourself, and how you personally mount the gun.  Take the following measurements;
Distance from the butt plate to where your face engages the stock at your cheek bone
Distance from your cheek bone to where your eye naturally aligns
Amount of horizontal distance from your cheek weld to the center of your eye socket (this determines cast-off needed)
Comfortable reach for your shooting hand in the position you intend to shoot it the most.  Lehighs have a nasty reputation of being cheek slappers, but I think it's because people didn't get a good fit to start with.  A  a result, they have to angle their head over to get  a good sight picture.  The result is the corner of their cheek bone mating up with that squarish comb shape.  Whammo, cheek slap.

I suggest you make yourself an adjustable  "try gun" out of plywood and use a 2x2 on the comb roughly shaped to the squarish profile of a lehigh comb.  Use shims between the 2 pieces of plywood to adjust cast off.  you can make the same thing for a butt plate.  Now that you have your own personal measurements (and your sight heights) you can lay out your stock design.

The following design features are quite unique to Lehighs, but also you should be aware that there is also quite a bit of variation within the school from maker to maker. (Rupp, Moll, Long, Berlin, Hawk, Young, Kuntz, Neidhart
Web  thin.  3/16" max in the nose, and 1/8" in the breech, but 1/8" and 1/16" is even better.
Nose cap.  1 1/2" is pretty common.  Some are grooved, some are not.  Some are open ended, some are not
set back about 1/16" is pretty standard
Sights  Typically very low, 1/8"is not uncommon
Side flat coverage 25%-40% max
RR coverage 1/4-1/3
fore end shape triangular is most common, and coming back in to form a heart sort of shape, with 1/32"-1/16" of wood at max where the barrel engages the wood. 
Max deflection of wood from barrel. 1/8" but 3/32"is better
V shaped lower fore end, but not as radically v shapedl as the upper fore end
Lock panel sweeps  gentle
Left side plate  1 piece, with pointed arrow at rear a very common shape
Lock panel margins  thin  1/16" max but flat along the bottom up from trigger guard foot
Lock orientation  nose down
Lock tails kicked out and wider than nose
Wrist starts diving down about 1/4" forward on to the top flat
wrist top is straight until the very top where it starts turning to meet the barrel breech
wrist shape wider than high.  Think of a football shape (with the points a little higher)  It then transitions to round, and then egg shaped at the rear where it engages the rear foot of the TG
vertically it forms something of an hourglass shape, which comes from carrying the horizontal belly line all the way back to the trigger, rather than angling downwards at the rear of the TG
fore end remains horizontal until the trigger, then it transitions and bends downward toward the toe.  (Young and Hawk did it differently though)
Trigger.  Single
trigger plate  Pointed at the back
Belly line.  Some did a single radius (Kuntz, Long, Neidhart, young) and some did double radius (Moll, Rupp)
Cheek piece  Low and small at about 50% of stock height for lower edge
Carving  Typically symmetrical baroque tang carving, usually incised, but not always.  If raised, it is low
Engraving  Typically simple, and baroque, but not always.  Kuntz, Young, and Hawk were very good engravers
Patch box  2 piece metal is the most common, but other styles exist
PB release button at the back most common, but toe plate releases are known (Kuntz)
Butt plate return,  Usually inletted in to the comb rather than sitting on top, like  a Lancaster.  More vertica thickness at the back than at the front
Butt plate  usually pretty wide
Toe plate.  Varies, but usually pretty small and simple shaped
Finish  Some have a very unique deep blood red colored varnish, and it is a unique color to Lehighs

Be a little careful if you are going to do a Kuntz gun though.  His style varied over his career after he moved to Philadelphia, and it was not as much Lehigh as it was Philadelphia school.

There are a myriad of other things unique to them, but this should give you a good start of what to look for when you are doing your planning.  Most builders need to make a few of them before they finally "get it right".  They are very graceful looking guns when done right, but because of all this stuff above, and more, also very tricky to achieve the right look.
 

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 01:30:12 AM »
Thank you for all of that information.   I've been reading a lot but what you posted is awesome.  I'm looking at a kit from MBS and I'll start reading and then get side tracked on the history and then the next thing I know I'm reading about a revolutionary war battle.  I'm looking at a kit from   Pecatonica River and MBS.  Finding a CM4 stock is my problem.  The MBS kit has more pieces I can use.  It has the single trigger etc.   I'm still debating on a plank. I'd like to do a SMR as a first rifle from a plank. 

Offline TommyG

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2018, 03:08:09 AM »
An SMR and a Lehigh.... Nothing wrong with getting things going for both.  Besides most of the components we use are a lot of times not in stock and will require a bit of waiting for.  Mr. B gave some great insight to a Lehigh, matter of fact, I think I'll make a copy and put it in my notes.  As he mentioned, check out Eric Von Aschwege's website - Neahkahnie Flintlocks.  He has a bunch of information on Lehigh builds.  I purchased a Neihardt print from him a few months ago - worth every cent.  Good Luck with your next build(s).

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2018, 03:46:41 AM »
I am enjoying my MBS Rupp kit.  But MAN! maple is WAAAY harder then walnut!  Had to re-taper my chisels, etc., to deal with the harder wood.  I think maples must have bred with ironwood trees!

Again, really liked your "first build", and hope mine turns out half as nice.

Craig
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Offline Mr. Bubbles

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 09:12:24 PM »
You need to be careful about Lehigh pre-carves.  Most of them don't have enough drop at the comb to accomodate those very low Lehigh sights.   They may be historically correct, but what good is that if they hurt to shoot them?  That's why the pre-build measurements are so critical.  With an upward sloping comb the further out on it you place your cheek, the less drop you have between your sight line and your cheek.  So you have to cock your head, and get a dose of cheek slap.  That's ok if you're building a 32, but a 50+ with a squarish rollover?  No thank you.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 10:12:26 PM »
Thank you for all of that information.   I've been reading a lot but what you posted is awesome.  I'm looking at a kit from MBS and I'll start reading and then get side tracked on the history and then the next thing I know I'm reading about a revolutionary war battle.  I'm looking at a kit from   Pecatonica River and MBS.  Finding a CM4 stock is my problem.  The MBS kit has more pieces I can use.  It has the single trigger etc.   I'm still debating on a plank. I'd like to do a SMR as a first rifle from a plank.

Afghanvet,

I built a Pecatonica Lehigh in .40 caliber a few years ago and it is a pleasant rifle to shoot.  However it is far from historically correct, especially the architecture.  If you aren't interested in historical correctness, it might work for you.

Mole Eyes (a disabled Namvet)
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 10:30:50 PM »
To add to Mr B's comments.... there is not a straight line anywhere from the lock back. All different arcs.  A rough go if you haven't handled one.  Hard to explain, or see in photos.
Also......skinny. Like Mr Martin told me..... remove wood till you're scared, then remove a little more.
As far as I've seen, there are no legit Rupp precarves out there. 
I've heard that MBS makes one, but I've not seen it.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:32:17 PM by smallpatch »
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Mr. Bubbles

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 11:15:02 PM »
Probably the best single point reference out there is the 2010 KRA disc # 10 on Lehigh Valley Rifles.  Most people are the most familiar with Rupp and Moll rifles, and largely what you say regarding straight lines is true for those.  But look at the top line of the wrist.  It is not curving throughout.  It is straight along the top from the nose of the comb until just before the breech, and it makes a gentle arc of a curve.  The curve is (or can be) carried on to the top flat of the barrel flat, which of course also means you have to do some re-contouring of the obliques. 

The transition zone around the lock panel tails and through the wrist is probably the trickiest area to get "right" on those guns, but sculpting the cheek rest area is no piece of cake either, particularly if you are putting in a large and thick inlay.

My current build is based on a Kuntz (#5 on the KRA disc) which is done with a 48" Burton A-weight in 38 caliber, and a DASST.  Very diminuitive, --almost petite--but it's been a very challenging and satisfying 2 year journey.  Yes, I started out by making a try-stock to get all the measurements.  It made a huge difference.

I have a hunch that many of the originals also were cheek slappers.  It seems Bucks and Lehighs didn't last that long as far as architecture goes.  Fads that faded.  The "hot pants' of the 18th century.  Great to look at, but any errors in construction reveal themselves pretty quickly.

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2018, 03:25:09 AM »
To add to Mr B's comments.... there is not a straight line anywhere from the lock back. All different arcs.  A rough go if you haven't handled one.  Hard to explain, or see in photos.
Also......skinny. Like Mr Martin told me..... remove wood till you're scared, then remove a little more.
As far as I've seen, there are no legit Rupp precarves out there. 
I've heard that MBS makes one, but I've not seen it.

Thank you guys for all the info.  I just placed an order for the MBS 44" swamped 50 kit and the KRA Lehigh Valley disc.  I looked at the pecatonica kit but it had the wrong side plate and double set triggers.  Easy enough to replace but I liked the MBS kit.  Ryan and Terry Jo have been more than helpful too.  I plan to do a plank build of a Southern Mountain after this.   I sure hope the Southern Mountain floats my boat for the hobby,  but I doubt it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 04:50:46 AM by Afghanvet »

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2018, 06:52:25 PM »
You been baptised, Reverend, you been baptised

No shortage of talent, welcome to the slippery slope.

Offline Mr. Bubbles

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2018, 12:24:41 AM »
Here is an article that gives you even more nuance as to geographical differences that deal with architectural differences between makers.

http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Kentucky-rifle-Pennsylvania-School-Northampton-County-B061_Gabel.pdf

Offline will payne

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Re: Finished my first rifle, on to the second
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 03:35:24 AM »
That's a beautiful flintlock I really like the carvings on it 👍🏻
🕯
Will


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson