Author Topic: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring  (Read 635 times)

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3163
  • Dane Lund
1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« on: June 13, 2018, 09:19:32 PM »
Ok, it's been years since I've done this, and don't seem to have the right info written down.
I've made a lift spring to open a patchbox lid out of ,tha 1095 sheet that MBS sells.
Spring is shaped and hardened.  What is the best way to draw it back so it won't break?
I don't have a heat treatment oven.

Thanks in advance.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4135
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 10:04:11 PM »
I have had some luck dropping those smaller thinner springs into my lead pot and holding them under for a min. or two.

Online rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10908
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 10:16:46 PM »
Iím with smylee. Beyond tempering colors. 1095 is also higher carbon than needed but can sure work.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4616
    • M. Elliott Gunmaker
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 10:56:19 PM »
I currently use a heat treat oven and temper to 700F.   Before that, I used a lead pot.   I turned up the temperature until the lead just melted  and then put the spring in for 15 minutes.    When measured the temperature of the lead was around 700F.   Lead melts at about 640F.    If you use temper colors to judge temperature; 700F would be very faint blue or clear.    You get a really bright "temper" blue around 560F.   At least that is how I do it in my heat treat oven.   560F is too hard for a spring.  That is about where I temper a tumbler and sear.  Springs that I make that have a "temper" blue, have been tempered to 700F; polished and then reheated to 560F.    Don't let the blue fool you.   It is the wrong temperature for a proper spring, at least one made of 1095. 

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:04:53 PM by Mark Elliott »
M. Elliott Gunmaker  http://www.markelliottva.com

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7963
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2018, 11:09:31 PM »
 When you temper a spring you do not quench it but let it cool slowly. You only quench it when you harden it and harden it in light weight oil not water.  Some steels are water hardening but is is still safer to harden in oil.  Go beyond just beyond the blue color to grey. The lead pot works very well. If you smoke the spring first the lead will not stick to it.   3 or 4 minutes in the lead should do fine if the lead is hot enough. I advise you to get a lead thermometer  They are cheap. PS. Mark knows what he is talking about.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:11:11 PM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2348
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 11:51:17 PM »
For thin springs I heat a 1/4" thick steel plate from underneath w/ a Mapp Gas torch and lay all surfaces  of the spring one by one on it until a gray/blue color is achieved. Special attention is paid to the bends to ensure the gray/blue color. I keep a pot of oil close by to control the color by dunking the spring.. Haven't had one break yet w/ this procedure.

Continuous heat isn't necessary....the steel plate retains the heat quite well. I've used this on springs up to 1//16"  thick.. An oven is better, but don't have one......Fred

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4874
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 12:27:04 AM »
Trouble with lead, is different alloys melt or become nicely fluid at different temperatures.
Thermometers should, I feel, be used as Jerry suggested - or trial and error using your lead pot
will likely do as well - with earned experience.

Of course the "trouble" (trouble?) today, with this information highway, there is always someone
who has learned 'the hard way' but is willing to share their experience (without charge - some do) so
you can learn the easy way and escape the heart or headaches of the learning curve. It gets to the point,
where people actually begin to expect to be told "how to do it", thus they actually never learn the HOW
method, which usually has MANY hidden lessons within the journey.
Thus, the easy way is not always the best method, perhaps, in the quest for knowledge & understanding.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3357
  • I know nothing
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 03:54:43 AM »
Dane,
Before I got my oven I would take a small tin can, set the hardened spring in the bottom of the can, cover the spring with a lightweight motor oil or transmission fluid and heat the oil with my propane torch until it stayed lit.  Once the fire went out, approximately 5 minutes, I covered the spring with lime or wood ash and let it cool.  Never had one break on me using this method.
Note, I went to 1084 steel a couple of years ago in lieu of the 1095.  1084 is a lot less persnickety then 1095.  I am making a spring for a powder horn spout today and I opted to cut down and file my spring from a larger piece of 1084 over using a thin piece of 1095 that was already the proper thickness.  Call me chicken, but I don't like my springs to break after spending the time bending, shaping, polishing, hardening and tempering them.
David   

Offline David R.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 04:22:08 AM »
I have had pretty good success tempering in a little can or jar lid in oil. I put  a little coil of wire in the bottom to keep the spring from contacting the can. I sit it on an easy fire and let the oil boil till it flashes. Then I sit it over in the corner of the forge till it goes out and cools. Works about 96% of the time. I have done frizzen springs, main springs, door latch springs, etc.,. this way. Most always works if the part was correctly hardened first.
I would have no quarrel with thee if thou be a friend of liberty.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7963
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 05:48:55 AM »
 If one really wants to play it safe and doesn't have a lot of experience a tempering use 6150. I call it the fool proof steel. However a big enough fool can still mess up.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Online BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 02:22:56 PM »
I donít have a heat treat oven, either. Have used the tin of oil for years without trouble.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 852
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 08:40:34 PM »
Since I also case bullets I have lead pots and a thermometer.  I soak springs for about 10 minuets at 750F.

I often make little springs from clock spring.  A friend restores victrolas. He gave me a bucket of old motor springs.  They are coils of flat stock.  It can be cut with tins snips and can be bent, a little, cold.  It also makes good scrapers and gouges.   

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2293
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 09:35:02 PM »
I think 1095 is really overkill for springs.  That's more like blade steel to my mind.  I like plain carbon steels in the 1050-1060 range for springs or thereabouts.

For most springs I do the really old method of heating the quenched spring back up in a dark room to temper, and heating it until you just barely begin to discern a hint of a black red/dull light type of look.  Hard to describe.  Very primitive but in the worst case the spring will get squishy, but will not snap, so can always be retempered.  I think Kit Ravenshear used to promote this method.  It has been fool proof for me as long as my eyesight has been good, ...............

Little bitty patchbox kick springs, if you're using 1095, heck I don't think you really need to deal with all this $#@*.  The thing is only going to move about 1/16" or so, so honestly I'd just file it out and use it as is.  1095 is so overly tough for this purpose that I don't think you even need to bother with all the tempering bs.   
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:06:22 PM by Eric Kettenburg »

Online Gaeckle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2018, 07:54:12 AM »
I think 1095 is really overkill for springs.  That's more like blade steel to my mind.  I like plain carbon steels in the 1050-1060 range for springs or thereabouts.


I agree, you can use an old hacksaw blade or a sawsall blade. When I use a sawsall blade I bend it with heat and as it cools it will get springy again, no need to temper it. When drilling a hole, it needs to be done when its hot, so careful planning is needed and you need to act fast. If your not happy with the spring, simply heat it up and make an adjustment.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2952
    • Personal Website
Re: 1095 temper patchbox lift spring
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2018, 07:05:04 PM »
Yep.  A patch box spring has such little stress on it, there's a whole range of acceptable material.  No need to worry about this much. 

Jim