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Author Topic: 60 cal ball recommendation  (Read 2861 times)
stoneke
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« on: May 31, 2009, 08:31:07 PM »

I am finishing a Chambers Mark Silver Virginia rifle with a 60 cal Getz bbl. The barrel and kit were bought some nine years ago, so I am anxious to finish the project and start shooting. The barrel bore diameter is approx .615 with a groove diameter of approx .637. My readily available ball choices are .595 or .600. Anyone have experience with this set up, so as to suggest a preferred size round ball. I can easily try both, but I thought that I'd ask the question.
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D. Bowman
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 09:52:03 PM »

My 62 likes a .600 ball and 25tho patching,spit or neets foot oil for lube and 110gr 2f Swiss. Loading is snug but not overly tight.


                                                                           Duane Bowman
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2009, 10:52:30 PM »

My Jaeger rifle has a Getz .60 cal barrel with round groove rifling.  I shot .595" pure lead balls for years and the rifle is superbly accurate with a .023" patch lubed with spit and 85 grains FFg GOEX.  It loads easily with a 3/8" hickory rod.
A couple years ago, I bought a Rapine .590" ball mould and now it loads even easier with no noticeable loss of accuracy.  I use a short starter.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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smallpatch
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Dane Lund


« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2009, 11:06:20 PM »

I've got the same MS Virginia in a .60.  Like Taylor,  I use a .595 ball with a .020-.022 patch.

This is by far the best shooting gun I own.  You can buy .595 balls, but I cast my own.  I got the single cavity mold from Jeff Tanner.

You'll love the gun.
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In His grip,

Dane
Daryl
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2009, 11:19:24 AM »

The 'boy's' .60's have .600 bores in their .60's and they are shooting .005" to .010" smaller their bores. This type of measured loading is universal - or normal - meaning that in a .615" bore size, you should be shooting a .610" or .605" ball.

 .005" and .010" are the normal undersized measurements.  What size to use depends a lot on how deep the rifling is.  Since you have .012" rifling, which is normal for square rifling, I'd be using a ball that is .005" smaller than the bore, ie: .610" plus a .020" denim patch. Going to a smaller ball such as a .605", I'd use a .025" denim patch.  I feel a .600" ball is too small for that bore size but that mould would be easy to get - ie; Lee or Lyman.

I add the numbers of ball diameter + 2 thicknesses of cloth and have found on targets, the best results come from having .007" to .015" compression of cloth in the bottom of the grooves.  Some guys get by with much looser loads, but then, some guys have to wipe out the building fouling time to time to as often as every shot.  I prefer to shoot rather than wipe - as do many others here - some like to wipe. It's a personal choice, like being a meataterian.

I've found the best accuracy comes from having as close to the match shooter's type loads as possible. They use exceptionally tight loads to obtain exceptional accuracy - the tighter you can use, the better.

Short starter's are necessary to get the best accuracy.  What your accuracy requirements are will dictate what loads you use.  The rifle's crown is vitally important in how easy it is to load a tight fitting combination.
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tg
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2009, 08:29:51 PM »

When did this ratio of bore size to ball size become univeral it is in no way how the original guns were set up to be loaded.You can actualy use a smaller ball and thumbstart it and get accuracy quite good enough for hunting and be experiencing  something much closer to the way it used to be done, or you can get an inline/scope/modern bullet and punch holes close together at 200 yds.
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Leatherbelly
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 09:37:51 PM »

tg,
 what ball and patch do you recommend then? I like to have the tightest groups at all distances that I shoot. Accuracy in hunting is most important for a quick kill. And I believe the old timers strove for accuracy too. You only get one poke, I make the best out of it. That spells a tight combo.JMHO
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smallpatch
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Dane Lund


« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 10:08:43 PM »

My MS Virginia is a true .60.  Are you sure yours isn't a .62?? 
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In His grip,

Dane
Daryl
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2009, 06:47:39 AM »

TG - The reference to anyone desiring the best accuracy being much different than shooting an inline piece of sh-t is out of line on a personal note.
 Round ball moulds have been  produced in sizes being .005" and .010" smaller than bore size since long before I started shooting muzzleloaders.  Perhaps you should write Lyman, RCBS and all the other mould makers and tell them they've had it all wrong for many years.

Just recently, I did a test with the 14 bore, using undersized balls that were capable of being thumb started - but tight enough to take some  effort.  The patches burnt to crisps and although accuracy was 1 1/2" at 25 yards (acceptable by some people), it was spread out to 10" at 50 yards and roughly 3 FEET at 100 = unacceptable accuracy.  Loading a fibre wad between the same thumb started patched ball and powder resulted in a nice 1" group at 25 yards - quite acceptable by most but opened to 6" at 50 and 2 FEET at 100, also unacceptable.  Mathematically doubling what happens at 25 yards is not the same as actually shooting at 50 yards or farther out.  The math does not hold up to the scrutiny of actually shooting.

I have a strong feeling that too many people shoot close ranges only, mostly 25, maybe even sometimes out to 30 & declare their thumb started load as being good enough.  Well, it isn't good enough for me.

One of the fellows here is using a load he can just barely thumb start. His fouling builds after a number of shots and he must swab out his bore to continue shooting.  His shooting is poor, at best - although he hits most of the close targets, he rarely hits one farther out than 40 or 50 yards.  Many of our longer range targets are deer 'vital' size & nothing is farther out than 104 yards.

Everyone who does well on our trail walk, uses a short starter because they have to.  To load the ball/patch combination that does well on our course of fire, one must use an accurate load.  25 yard accuracy is good only to 25 or 30 yards.  That won't cut it.  A number of the fellows also do well on the course with smoothbores - because they use snug combinations that require short starters to get them started. Their accuracy is better than those who choose to use 'loose' loads in rifles.

If you really want to get into the flavour of shooting 'the original' way, dump some powder into your pan, close the 'hammer', then pour in powder straight from the horn or flask into the barrel, then spit one of the balls you are carrying in your mouth into the bore, thump the butt on the saddle pommel, lower it and shoot that buffalo.  The accuracy was all that was needed - in that case.

 I guess that would be a tongue-started load.
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stoneke
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Posts: 43


« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2009, 11:15:12 AM »

Smallpatch, et al - I am surprised by the measured dimensions, as the bbl is stamped 60 cal on the bottom flat. I can easily run a .62 bottom scraper jag (.610) down the bbl, with what I estimate to be an additional .005 clearance. This likewise leads me to believe that it is incorrectly marked. When I bought this kit (long ago), I recall that Chambers advertised it in 60 cal. Now it is offered in 58 and 62, although with different barrel makers than the originals being from Getz.
Measuring across the flats and round bottom grooves with my dial micrometer isn't the absolute best, but it is what is now available. I will go with a larger ball and experiment with patching.
Anyone suggest a supplier for the round balls?
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Daryl
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2009, 11:19:06 AM »

trackofthewolf.com has both cast and swaged balls of many sizes.  I know they come in bags of 25 in larger sizes (only ones I've purchased) and this allows a person to try several sizes before coming to the size most suitable for one's shooting style and experience.

I have tried way undersized balls in both the .69 and the .58 with the finding that I had to really use a tight combination to prevent gas cutting.  For example, the .562" ball in the .574" bore (.580" groove at muzzle) of my Musketoon required a .025" patch to prevent blow by. The Musketoon has progressive depth rifling, deeper the farther down the tube you go, therefore the combination becoming loose to the bottom of the groove as it's seated. Due, I suppose to the low pressure generated with 100gr. of powder, the patches didn't burn out, but a thinner, .020' patch did, although compression upon seating was still heavy.  In the .69, shooting a .662" ball, I had to use 2, .020" patches (doubled patches) to get a seal. This load allowed for groups at 100meters of 2 1/2", so accuracy wasn't too bad for normal shooting. Best accuracy in that barrel is with a pure lead ball .684"and a .022" patch in it's .012" rifling. Groups run 1" to 1.5" at 100 meters, so shows rather profoundly, that the larger ball is more accurate.  Neither loads easier than the other as only tight loads give this sort of accuracy - for me.
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tg
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2009, 11:25:59 AM »

I have seen many folks post of using thumb started loads with good accuracy on all the forums I have been on, it will not be match level but perfectly acceptable for deer within the limits of the PRB I have a fusil that I feel is a 50 yd gun and can keep shots in the kill zone at that distance with a .535/.550./.562/.570 with or without patching and the fouling will increase with the looser loads without patching so the next shot a smaller ball can be used. With rifles I used a ball trhat allowed at least a .018 patrch and let the ball staret without a starter. go ahead with your techno post I will not bother you again, this place is a bit top heavy with experts for me.
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Collector
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2009, 03:50:31 PM »

tg, 

Q.  Do you own a traditional ML with a rifled barrel? 

If you do, what ball, powder and patch combinations do you shoot in it and why?

Thanks, in advance for your time and reply,

G.Hansen
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David Rase
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2009, 10:12:03 AM »

I have two Getz .60 caliber rifled barrels.  I think Getz is the only manufacturer of true .60 caliber bores.  One is 42" long and the other is 31" long.  When I received my first barrel in 1996 I called John and ask where do I get a mould for the .60 caliber?  He told me that Rapine makes a .590 round ball mould.  I ordered one from Rapine and have been very pleased with the .590. 
On a side note, I once had a 20g trade gun that you could not hit the side of a barn with, even if you were standing on the inside.  I was using .600.  I decided to sell the gun because it shot so bad.  When I took it to the range for the buyer to shoot all I had was some of the .590 round balls.  It shot so well using the .590's that I almost did not want to sell the thing. 
DMR
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Don Getz
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2009, 10:36:44 AM »

Stoney..........I suppose I would be the one to blame for this confusion, and it could be marked incorrectly......I suppose it
could happen anytime.   It's difficult to measure the bore with a calipre since you have a groove opposite a land.   If that
scraper measures .615 across, and you can easily get it down the bore, then it must be a 62 calibre, and I apologize  for
that.  If the gun were mine, and I wanted to hunt with it, I would probably use a .600 ball..now, if you have trouble getting a .600 ball down that bore, then we will have to back up and think, maybe it is a 60 cal.   If Taylor recommends a
ball for a 62 it would probably be a .615, says they load easy....sorry Taylor.   Easy or hard means different things to different people.   I always found a .005 undersize ball work OK in my chunk gun, but I start it with a hammer.  Anyway,
try some different size balls and let us know what it will take...thanks, and sorry..........Don
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stoneke
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Posts: 43


« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 10:53:17 AM »

Thanks guys for all your input. I will order both .600 and .610 balls before committing to a mold. Don, no problem on my part whether it is a 60 or 62 - small difference. The workmanship on the barrel is great. Looking forward to some shooting. Will provide some updates soon.
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Daryl
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2009, 09:17:30 AM »

Thanks guys for all your input. I will order both .600 and .610 balls before committing to a mold. Don, no problem on my part whether it is a 60 or 62 - small difference. The workmanship on the barrel is great. Looking forward to some shooting. Will provide some updates soon.

stoneke - your measurements give the barrel similar dimensions to Taylor's first Hawken, a .'62' with a GRRW barrel, I think it was.  That rifle shot beautifully with heavy loads, and some lighter ones.  The .600" with really heavy patches might work OK, but I'd concentrate on the .610" ball personally.
One way to figure how much patch you need with a specific diameter ball, is to take the the groove depth and add .010" to give .005" compression per side. Then, subtract the ball diameter from that. In your rifle, the groove depth of .637"+ .010" = .647" - .600 = .047" divided by 2 = .0235" for patch thickness.  The same .647" - .610" = .037" divided by 2 = .0185" for patch.  An .018" to .020" patch will hold sufficient lube and shoot just fine. The smaller ball might allow shooting WW metal with the same or slightly heavier patch - your choice and experimentation down the road. Good fortune!
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