Ketland, or is it?

[GroversGuns]

I just picked this up last night along with another gun, I sweet talked my husband into me getting two!     It says Ketland on the lock but I can not seem to find any makers marks on it.  I have seen some online with the pineapple near the trigger guard,  but none with this butt cap. This one seems to be pretty ornate.  The barrel appears to have some work on it.  Does anyone have any ideas of what it is, how old and what it may or may not be worth? 

Thank you,
Tracy

[JV Puleo]

There are a number of very odd things about that pistol. In the first place, I am reasonably certain it is not the product of either of the two Ketland firms. It may be one of the Belgian-made copies but those usually - if not always - carry conventional Belgian proof marks. Also, the lock is not marked in the way the Belgians did. The only K guns marked simply "Ketland" are, as far as I can tell, the very earliest made by Thomas Ketland Sr. before he formed his partnership with William Walker. This would be, roughly, 1760 to 1776 and this gun is much too late to fit into that category. The later guns are all marked either "T. Ketland & Company" or "W. Ketland & Company" with a few very late arms marked "Ketland & Walker" and "Ketland & Adams"

The "bun nut" fastening on the hammer appears around the early to mid-1820s. So far, I've seen it on only one K gun, a percussion side by side double that must pre-date 1831 when the W. Ketland firm went out of business. I've never seen a real K gun with a detachable brass pan. This was an exclusively continental European practice (copied by the US) and is virtually unknown in British guns.

The trigger guard is a conventional British design, widely used but the other mounts are strange. If I had to guess, I'd say it was made up quite recently from miscellaneous parts and that the lock is a reconversion.

[Hungry Horse]

 I agree this is likely made up from old parts. The barrel having a brass liner, make me believe it might have been old, and rough. I’m thinking it may have been made in India.

  Hungry Horse

[smart dog]

Hi,
The pistol is very odd. Joe, you must recognize the style of engraving on the trigger guard bow?  I know you have seen that before on almost every New England flintlock rifle with any metal inlays.  The barrel has a patent or chambered breech of some sort and the lock was altered considerably. The frizzen spring seems odd as well.  I have no idea what the butt cap is or what the side plate decoration means. 

dave

[JV Puleo]

I suspect the trigger guard is old and you are right, it is extremely common on NE guns. I'm not sure about the lockplate and cock but they certainly look as if they might be old. Notice that the name "Ketland" appears to be from a single stamp or whoever made it had access to a fixture to hold individual stamps. That's the sort of thing a machinist would know about and might have. The baseline of the type is perfect and you really can't do that by hand. That said, the shape of the thing is completely off and the barrel with a brass liner is really strange but a machinist would have no problem lining a pistol barrel. I could do it in an hour or two. I don't think it's Afgan or Indian - their products are generally cruder. This looks to me as if its the product of a clever mechanic - one with machine shop tools and skills but not much exposure to original guns.

[GroversGuns]

Thank you all for the info, I do appreciate it.  I had bought it at an antique gun shop near me.  I also bought this, which I am pretty certain is authentic.  But any knowledge about  it would be appreciated also!

Tracy

[JV Puleo]

That one looks like a perfectly straight M1836 pistol with a government conversion to percussion. It has good marks too - which is a plus. Notice how they soldered a little fillet into the cut off original pan.

[Bob Roller]

I agree this is likely made up from old parts. The barrel having a brass liner, make me believe it might have been old, and rough. I’m thinking it may have been made in India.

  Hungry Horse

Maybe India but I tend to agree with the "clever Mechanic"theory.
I would consider it as a decorator or table lamp material.

Bob Roller

[vanu]

Re: The first image; This seems to have a cartouche in Arabic on the side plate, my guess is that is may have been shipped to North Africa (Algeria/Libya/Egypt etc)  and is quite possibly 19th century. Does the barrel have a brass bore liner?

Bruce

[GroversGuns]

Re: The first image; This seems to have a cartouche in Arabic on the side plate, my guess is that is may have been shipped to North Africa (Algeria/Libya/Egypt etc)  and is quite possibly 19th century. Does the barrel have a brass bore liner?

Bruce

Here is another picture.  And thanks again to everyone.  I appreciate the knowledge your sharing with me!

Tracy

[GroversGuns]

I had another question about the lock and if that is real or not.  Is that something that would be easier to tell if it was opened and more pictures were taken? It’s funny you mentioned machinists, my husband is a machinist.  If it won’t hurt anything, he can do that. 
Thanks again!
Tracy

[realtorone]

 On the 1836 one stamp was original inspectors stamp,the other is when it was converted to percussion.Nice clean 1836.

[Feltwad]

Enclosed is a image of a early Ketland & Co  sxs sporting gun in 12 bore if this is any help

Feltwad

[OldSouthRelics]

The first piece, the "Ketland", has an odd look to it at quick glance. I'm sure somebody else can expand on why.

The R. Johnson looks fine from an authenticity stand point. Great cartouches.