Author Topic: John Rupp  (Read 882 times)

Offline jdm

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John Rupp
« on: September 13, 2018, 02:59:06 AM »
I can't remember if I posted this before . If I did it was probably several years ago. Sorry if it's a do over.  I think it is the earlier John Rupp. I hope Eric sees this and offers up some ideas.  Thanks   Jim








JIM

Offline jdm

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 03:04:00 AM »










JIM

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 03:07:10 AM »
You did and thank you for doing it again
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 05:42:17 AM »
Beauty.  Practically the whole side flat is exposed!
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline burnt

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 03:21:19 PM »
Do you have a lock view?

Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2018, 03:29:53 PM »
Nifty, I'd be interested in a few measurements. Height and width of the buttplate, barrel breech, height and width of the wrist, trigger pull and patch box measurements.

Thanks for posting, great gun.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 07:26:13 PM »
Boy, that's the real deal!  Just a superlative example of great Lehigh architecture.  Fabulous condition.  I'll bet is is NOT a feather weight rifle.  Notice how thin the wood is along the forestock at the muzzle.  The very low side flat wood allows for that.  Patch box engraving is excellent...notice how straight the border lines are on the lid, and how evenly the wavy design is cut.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2018, 07:55:56 PM »
I noticed there are lines engraved on both the fore and aft end of the front sight. I own a rifle of the same style that also has this feature. Mine has the rear sight bracketed with engraved lines as well. Can anybody tell me if this was a common feature on Lehigh style guns.

  Hungry Horse

Offline rich pierce

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2018, 08:41:37 PM »
Anyone have ideas on how the wide initials engraved on the patchbox were done?  One pass or is it shaded with many cuts?
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline jdm

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2018, 08:47:59 PM »
Thank you everyone for the interest .
Mike  I will get the measurements for you when I get some time. If I remember the butt plate is one and five eights across.  I've had this at the Princeton show before .You may have seen it there.
Kevin this is the best picture I have of the lock . It is not original to the rifle.

Hungry Horse  I have seen those lines on quite a few rifles from that region.  They are also back by the rear site as well.
This rifle really shows the Lehigh egg shaped wrist.








« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:21:10 AM by jdm »
JIM

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2018, 05:33:27 AM »
Beautiful piece, thanks for posting!

Rich..., Id say the wide parts were done by making a few cuts.  A couple places where it looks like you can see lines, at least it looks like that to me.



            Ed

Offline GrampaJack

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2018, 02:39:55 AM »
I would respectfully suggest that this gun should be in the library.  Jack

Online Dan Fruth

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2018, 06:48:30 PM »
Beautiful Lehigh...I'd be interested in the barrel bore and ramrod diameter..Is it a tapered rod or straight from the rear pipe to the front pipe...Thanks...A general question about Lehigh rifles...Were most built for 5/16 dia rods, or were 3/8 rods ever used? And were tapered or straight rods used? Thanks

Offline Arcturus

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 12:00:08 AM »
Wow.  Thanks for those views of a real classic beauty.  As I was looking at the first set of pics, I thought "Nifty!".  Scroll down a little and see Mike Brooks had the same word come to mind!  :)
Jerry

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2018, 01:01:02 AM »
Jim as time has gone by, it appears that the likelihood of John/Johannes Rupp being a long-term gunsmith gets smaller and smaller.  To be brutally honest, at this point about the only piece I'd actually consider a Johannes Rupp rifle is possibly Keiths old beast of a gun #13 on the Lehigh Disc, signed John Rupp.  I think it was Tim Lubenesky a few years back who sent me a copy of an indenture/deed for John Rupp of Macungie - and it is clear by the description (son of George Rupp Sr.) and the notation regarding Herman Rupp that this is the elder John/Johannes Rupp, and in this deed he's described as a "yeoman."  Appears to have been farming, being noted as a yeoman, was selling off 40 acres of land.

John II, the younger John Rupp, was a nephew of both Johannes Rupp and Herman Rupp.  I strongly suspect he is the maker of pretty much all the JR / J Rupp / John Rupp rifles and I think they're all around 1800+ at the earliest.

Something which I think has thrown a big wrench into the works are a couple of semi-early (probably 1780s at earliest, just post-Rev War) rifles being attributed to John the elder with no signature.  There is no way I believe the rifle on the KRA Lehigh Disc #6 is a Rupp rifle, I'll put that out there right now.  That's a Moll gun in my opinion.  Also the side-opener is also attributed, no signature, I really don't know who I'd attribute it to but I don't think it's the same guy who made the signed John Rupp #13.

There is also the possibility that 13 is just a big honking gun made for a big guy, and made early in John II's career.

I guess what I'm saying is that Johannes Rupp - born 1762 - appears to have been noted as a smith of some type somewhat early on in his life, just like his brother Herman, but I think by the early 19th century he likely moved on to other things.  The problem as I see it is that there were a couple of different John Rupps in Lehigh and Berks and it's really not clear who was who.  The indenture that Tim sent me is really the first hard evidence that the elder John - Johannes, brother of Herman - still owned land in Macungie as of 1802 and it somewhat reinforces the scattered familial genealogies as it specifies both his father George and his brother Herman.  BTW, the second John Rupp was also a son of George Rupp, this being John George Rupp who was son of George the elder and brother of Johannes and Herman. 

Confused yet?!!!!!!! 

I guess the bottom line is I attribute pretty much all of the John Rupp guns, other than the Lehigh Disc #13, to the later John.  Yours is a spectacular example of architecture, but it definitely looks 19th century and likewise I truly think it's a John II.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2018, 01:12:31 AM »
I'm going to go through my notes in the next couple of days and see what I have on John the elder, i.e. when he was noted as a smith, vs. a yeoman, etc.  I'll see if I have anything else also.

Offline jdm

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2018, 02:08:45 AM »
Eric, Thanks for your input you have certainly studied this area more than I.  The Rupps have always been confusing to me. Most of the  so called Rupp rifles I have seen look later than this one with slightly different lines  . That is how I'm making my guess on it being the elder Rupp. The uncle , brother or whoever the heck  he was. It was a guess I thought around 1790-1800 but I love to think everything is earlier than it is. I hate it when facts get in the way.
I have seen Rupp attributions with fine engraving  and others where the engraving is not up to the same standards . I'm guessing that some one else engraved them or they were not made by Rupp. I thought that Kuntz and Rupp may have exchanged work.  I think Kuntz moved to philly  around 1811 so that  does not explain the later guns.  There are some rifles with real fine engraving on the patch box and the engraving on the other parts looks to be of a different hand. It makes it interesting.  I am a real fan of that area and appreciate. your research .  Jim
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 02:10:51 AM by jdm »
JIM

Offline jdm

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Re: John Rupp
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2018, 02:33:57 AM »
Here are a few measurements made with old eyes and an old tape measure.

Butt plate 1  5/8 wide   ( your right Eric )
                4 1/8 long
Barrel 42 1/4 long rifled  one inch across the breech
46 cal.
Patch box
6inches overall  1 1/2 wide
3 1/2 inch lid.
length  of pull 13 inches
Ram Rod  tapered  5/16 not original
JIM