Author Topic: Round Bottom Rifling?  (Read 2089 times)

Offline rfd

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2018, 12:09:23 AM »
i prefer radius groove rifling.  i do find cleanup is easier and little need for patched jag fouling control.  not a match shooter, never will be, don't see a difference in offhand accuracy 'tween radius and flat gooves.  finding a good patch/ball combination is also easier as well.  ymmv, as it should be.

Any experience with Rice round bottom barrels?

Seems when it comes to this, half of people are saying round bottom rifling is easier to clean, fouls less, loads easier, and is just as accurate as square bottom rifling.

But then the other half says you have to use such a thick patch and tight load combination in order to control fouling and blow by that it makes it actually harder to load, that there is no difference in cleaning, and that square bottom is more accurate...

 :-\

not yet with rice barrels, but i have one his kits coming, so soon enuf.  i've had a number of barrels "freshed out" by bobby hoyt, .50 to .54 and .36 to .40, all with .012 radius groove rifling.  me like 'em.
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Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2018, 01:13:07 AM »
I currently have 3 Rice barrels with round bottom rifling,they all shoot as good as anyone would expect. I use a ball .005 under and .018 pillow ticking,lube with spit or tracks mink oil. Never had any problems with blown patches. My .54 uses .020 pocket drill and I have it coned,but still use a short starter out of habit. I can load it with just the ramrod for hunting.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2018, 03:51:25 AM »
Seems as if most prefer square bottom rifling...

I fear Iíve made a mistake ordering round bottom! I didnít know round bottom rifling causes blown patches and so on.  :'(

If you use heavier loads as many people call hunting loads, then you will need to fill those deep grooves or may have blown patches.

If you use mostly loads in the squib-load range, ie: bore size loads, ie: .32gr. in a .32, 45 in a .45, 50gr. in a .50, just about any ball and patch combination will likely work

and not blow the patches.

Like some others, I see no difference in cleaning.  I would have prefered, however that the .48" bl. on my A. Verner rifle had square rifling.

I have never seen deep round bottom rifling on a round ball 'match' rifle - usually .008" to .012" and square-ish.

In retrospect, I would like to try a barrel with .010" or .012" rifling cut with the same rifling head as used in deep rifling. I am sure our tighter ball and patch combinations would shoot just fine

and that the rifling does not have to be nearly as deep as even Rice makes it at .016" normally.

It could be that poor ball and patch combinations would not work at all, I do not know. I've yet to see what I consider a poor ball and patch combination user in the winner's circle

at a BC Rendezvous match, aside the odd "women's" or "kid's" matches.

With .010" to .012" rounded bottomed rifling and a decent ball and patch combination and 60" or slower twist, depending on calibre .45 through .62cal., perhaps the ultimate shape and rate of

 twist would be found. I'd sure like to try one. It would have to be .54 cal. or larger and 1 1/8" oct. or round as that is the only 'other' rifle stock I have now with easily replaceable barrels.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 04:04:11 AM by Daryl »
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Offline Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2018, 06:26:33 AM »
Seems as if most prefer square bottom rifling...

I fear Iíve made a mistake ordering round bottom! I didnít know round bottom rifling causes blown patches and so on.  :'(

If you use heavier loads as many people call hunting loads, then you will need to fill those deep grooves or may have blown patches.

If you use mostly loads in the squib-load range, ie: bore size loads, ie: .32gr. in a .32, 45 in a .45, 50gr. in a .50, just about any ball and patch combination will likely work

and not blow the patches.

Like some others, I see no difference in cleaning.  I would have prefered, however that the .48" bl. on my A. Verner rifle had square rifling.

I have never seen deep round bottom rifling on a round ball 'match' rifle - usually .008" to .012" and square-ish.

In retrospect, I would like to try a barrel with .010" or .012" rifling cut with the same rifling head as used in deep rifling. I am sure our tighter ball and patch combinations would shoot just fine

and that the rifling does not have to be nearly as deep as even Rice makes it at .016" normally.

It could be that poor ball and patch combinations would not work at all, I do not know. I've yet to see what I consider a poor ball and patch combination user in the winner's circle

at a BC Rendezvous match, aside the odd "women's" or "kid's" matches.

With .010" to .012" rounded bottomed rifling and a decent ball and patch combination and 60" or slower twist, depending on calibre .45 through .62cal., perhaps the ultimate shape and rate of

 twist would be found. I'd sure like to try one. It would have to be .54 cal. or larger and 1 1/8" oct. or round as that is the only 'other' rifle stock I have now with easily replaceable barrels.

I see. The only animals Id be hunting would be squirrels and rabbits and for plinking I always prefer a lighter load anyway.

Domyou guys think I should ring TVM to change to square bottom rifling?

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2018, 03:47:06 PM »
Quote
Do you guys think I should ring TVM to change to square bottom rifling?

I think you should quit trying to build a gun by committee and let TVM get on with building the gun.  What if they have already ordered your barrel and you end up sticking them with one they will have to keep in stock until someone else requests one.  Gunmakers hate those who waffle during the process.

Asking for "opinions" is not a subjective way to get facts.  You only get personal preferences.  It's kind like the current political situation.
Dave Kanger

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2018, 04:20:11 PM »
Either will be good.  Itís not a bench rifle or chunk gun.  Youíll figure out a ball/patch/lube combo that works great.  Otherwise nobody would offer round bottomed rifling. Obviously it works.  Like Dave said, preferences.
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Offline Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2018, 04:52:05 PM »
Quote
Do you guys think I should ring TVM to change to square bottom rifling?

I think you should quit trying to build a gun by committee and let TVM get on with building the gun.  What if they have already ordered your barrel and you end up sticking them with one they will have to keep in stock until someone else requests one.  Gunmakers hate those who waffle during the process.

Asking for "opinions" is not a subjective way to get facts.  You only get personal preferences.  It's kind like the current political situation.

You are right, and Iím sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Thank you for your time and help!

Offline Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2018, 04:55:20 PM »
Either will be good.  Itís not a bench rifle or chunk gun.  Youíll figure out a ball/patch/lube combo that works great.  Otherwise nobody would offer round bottomed rifling. Obviously it works.  Like Dave said, preferences.

Yes I bought the gun specifically for offhand shooting and small game hunting.

Guys what Iím learning with this hobby is that for every guy out there doing this, thereís another way of doing something. What one guy loves the next guy hates, etc. but itís the same with nearly all hobbies and makes things fun! Sorry for being a pester guys, I know Iíve been asking too many questions lately and will take a hiatus from this board as I donít want to wear out my welcome or rock the boat.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2018, 05:05:52 PM »
Smokey, I do not think that you have "offended" any one.  But, you have many opinions posted to help you out.  We cannot tell you how to  build your rifle, however.  You need to read the opinions, and take what you want from them, and build YOUR rifle to suit YOU.

I am currently building a nice rifle.  Originally, it was to be a reproduction of Herman Rupp's beautiful 1793 rifle.  But early on, I realized that building that reproduction was beyond my current capabilities.  Sure, I asked for a few opinions, we all do.  And no one is terribly offended if we do not opt for their particular opinion.

So, I am building this rifle to suit ME.  And I am sure making mistakes as I go along, and that is OK - I learn from them, and when I build another rifle, hopefully I will be able to avoid those same mistakes, and probably make a host of other mistakes!  There are, well, I was going to say, "none of us" who has not made mistakes, and then I remembered Mike Brooks.  So, 99.9% of us have NOT made a mistake.  He is the odd ball that never has.

Build your rifle, have fun doing it.  And when it is done, you will have really accomplished something that les than 0.001% of the population has done, and you can take pride in it!  Go out and shoot it, kill a whole ream of paper, and maybe a squirrel or three.

And we are all here to help, to advise, each other.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2018, 06:28:33 PM »
Quote
You are right, and Iím sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Thank you for your time and help!

I doubt that you offended anyone, but have TVM build the gun you want, not what everyone else thinks you want.  Don't 2nd guess yourself.  Spend some time using the search function and do your research.  Regardless of what you choose, it'll be your gun and once you learn how to feed and shoot it, you'll be happy with it.  It's hard to dampen enthusiasm but sometimes it leads to needless indecision.  No reason to leave the forum......just relax a bit.
Dave Kanger

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2018, 06:32:47 PM »
__note that I started this reply before the last several posts were up__

Quote
Do you guys think I should ring TVM to change to square bottom rifling?

I think you should quit trying to build a gun by committee and let TVM get on with building the gun.  What if they have already ordered your barrel and you end up sticking them with one they will have to keep in stock until someone else requests one.  Gunmakers hate those who waffle during the process.

Asking for "opinions" is not a subjective way to get facts.  You only get personal preferences.  It's kind like the current political situation.


As a professor of mine used to say about the law: You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I agree with Dave here to the effect of if you keep pecking at your TVM order, you're sure to get something those fellows are sick of and just want it out of the shop.  Don't do that to decent gun-making folks or to yourself (it may land your gun on the "special needs" category delaying delivery). Pays your money and takes your chances. 

Just never forget that no matter what ball or patch or bore or rifling or steel or lube or powder/prime or flint/cap your lock and trigger you gun winds up being constructed with, YOU yet have to develop a load for it. And your load won't be exactly the same as anyone else's.

Unless you copy cat someone else's load and "hope" it works. It might work if you can get it down the bore, or it could fall in. But it won't be optimized for accuracy and best performance available from your gun. Loading procedures tend to be different, lubes tend to be different, patches, etc. are different, as are the machining tolerances that allow some variation between moulds and bores actual sizes when measured past their nominal designations.

It's too easy to "think something to death" and come up with conclusions in theory that do not work, or do no work well in application.  But it's great to learn of the most common options and variations and opinions in practice.  That way if process X doesn't work as you thought it might,  you can jump right to Y and see how you like that.  It should come together in a way similar to others, but not quite exactly.

Just don't get your mind all made up before you're ramming balls and looking for patches and making holes in paper.

Hanshi hits the bottom line here:
I use thick unbleached canvas and it fills out the deep rb grooves completely.  Actually, it's just a matter of finding the load your barrel likes.


There are a lot of paths to finding those loads your bbl likes, and you can't do it online, but that's what has to happen for best satisfaction of any shooter who cares to land their bullets near the x.

I spent too many hours developing loads for moderns in order to extract best safe accuracy, it's actually somewhat simpler with BP.  But so much more fun.  So do that.  Have fun, and trust your maker.

You can always choose another maker for your next one, after you know much more about what you want.    ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 06:38:02 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2018, 07:12:05 PM »
Well said Wade and Hanshi.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2018, 10:26:52 PM »
Quote
Domyou guys think I should ring TVM to change to square bottom rifling?
I still prefer flat bottom rifling but the Rice 32 with radius rifling would shoot one jagged hole from a rest at 30 yards. That's as good as I can shoot but it might have done better with experienced younger eyes shooting.

My Rice 54 38" hunting rifle also has radius rifling (bought the components from someone that never built the rifle) and it shoots very good when I do my part but I don't think it loads or cleans any easier than the flat bottom rifling on other rifles I own and those barrels were much cheaper than the radius rifled barrels.
Dennis
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2018, 08:11:07 PM »
Shot my 45 cal RB barrel again.  I really hate it.  I can not do any better than about 3" @ 50 yds.  Bench rest of course. That is not acceptable to me.

The bore is .450.  The grooves are .016.  Lands and grooves are about 50:50 for width. 

I have tried multiple powder charges and lubes.  I have tried .433 and .440 balls and patches up to 0.033".  I need a steel range rod to load tighter combinations. It is my opinion that I am not getting sufficient compression the middle of the grooves with any load that does not distort the ball so much that it sours accuracy.

Before I scrap the barrel, does any one have any loads that have shot decent in such a barrel?  ...Decent is under an inch at 50 yards. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2018, 08:45:12 PM »
any load that does not distort the ball so much that it sours accuracy.

That is a quote from your last sentence.  Why are you concerned about distorting the ball?  Ideally, you must have the weave design of the fabric of the patch engraved HEAVILY on the whole perimeter of the ball touching the bore.  That is not distorting the ball...it is paramount to top performance from that barrel.  Even in a Toenjes .60 cal barrel with groove depth of .026", I get one hole groups for five shots at 50 meters, bench rest.  .60 cal bore, .026" grooves, .595" ball and .030" (crushed) denim patches...loads with hickory ramrod.
Don't give up.  If you have to use the steel range rod, so be it.  At least until you ring out the accuracy potential of the barrel.  The crown of the muzzle is critical to accomplish this kind of loading.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2018, 09:10:05 PM »
I might humbly add that your barrel will surely shoot like a champ if you keep testing, shooting, smooth up the muzzle crown and maybe try a .445" ball.  I use canvas duck and unbleached heavy canvas with excellent results.  Whatever your barrel ends up liking is what you should use.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2018, 09:31:36 PM »
By "distort" I mean mashed to a non round shape, not the fabric imprint.  I can try some larger balls and a thinner patch.  I suspect that it will make the gas blow by in the grooves worse, not better.    Anything is worth a try at this point though.

I suspect the concept is fatally flawed.  It has a .450 bore and is .482" in the grooves.  The lands are wide.  The lands being so wide makes a loadable patch ball combination that is snug in the grooves near impossible.  OK for a trail walk or deer rifle, fine, but not a target rifle.  It depends on one's idea of what accuracy is.  I'll try once more, then I'm done.

Later I did some math:



On the shallow rifling rifle, the difference between the L/G is much less thus getting a seal is easy on both the lands and grooves.  The rifling is plenty deep to spin the ball. No issues with blow by and cutting the patch in the corners of the rifling. 

OP's question?  I would not order another deep groove round bottom barrel. 




« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 02:15:46 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline elkhorne

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2018, 04:59:49 AM »
hanshi,
What is the thickness of your unbleached canvas and where do you get it? Also, do you wash the sizing out of it before you use it? Thanks and hope this will help all trying to work up that best load.
elkhorne

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2018, 06:29:20 AM »
Well itís a shame this is being difficult. A good barrel should not be super finicky. Neither should a good lock.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2018, 07:09:27 AM »
Hey guys:  The most famous barrel that I ever rifled had oval bottom grooves rifled to .035" and they were twice the width of the lands.  The patch was heavy sail cloth .032" and the ball was .020" undersize of the bore. It would shoot pretty much any charge of powder. But the secret was - no ball deformation!  Not even imprinting the fabric weave on the soft lead.  A deep muzzle crowning is also a must.     Hugh Toenjes
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 07:10:40 AM by Blacksmoke »
H.T.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2018, 06:19:23 PM »
"and they were twice the width of the lands."

And that is the difference!  When the grooves are deep and narrow it is an unsolvable  problem.   Every time I go to the range to try to find a load it costs me over $50.  I am cutting my losses.  Just now I ordered a new barrel.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 01:58:10 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2018, 06:28:19 PM »
Scota4570, did you get my PM?
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2018, 06:41:17 PM »
Scota4570, did you get my PM?

Reply sent.

Scot

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2018, 07:43:39 PM »
Like the C&W song says, "Round bottom girls make the world go round." 
No reason why it can't do the same for your rifling.
Dave Kanger

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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Round Bottom Rifling?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2018, 08:16:04 PM »
Bit of a misquote Dave:  "Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go 'round!" 

I'm sensing that Scota4570 is frustrated!  I don't blame him.  I feel for ya guy.  Nice scientific evaluation of the situation, I might add.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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