Author Topic: First tools (Read 3604 times)

bnail · « **on:** October 10, 2018, 06:20:30 AM »

I know this topic has been discussed a lot, but I couldn't find a satisfactory answer to my question {lots of good advice though}
my project pretty much is exactly what is pictured in mike's tutorial. a stock plank with the Barrel and RR channel already cut.
for the first few steps I and going to need:
a good hack saw to cut the tenons
a few chisels/gouges for squaring up the tenon holes and inletting the lock (which I havent purchased yet)
and solid vice in which to secure the stock.
a good stone for sharpening (wife gets *#)*^~ when I use the bottoms of her crockery)
these are the only steps I'm concentrating on for now so I was hoping you folks might suggest the proper tools.
now back to reading

Wolfshead · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2018, 01:34:57 PM »

These references are a great resource for your build.
I would recommend one if not all and believe they will help with a lot of your questions.

Alexander's Gunbuilders of Greville County
Dixon's building a muzzleloader
Recreating the American Longrifle
And, The Longrifle Construction Manual by Susanne Warren-Bicio

I would definitely get Dixon’s manual and talks very much about tools in a very easy simple way.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2018, 03:23:56 PM »

Quote from: bnail on October 10, 2018, 06:20:30 AM

I know this topic has been discussed a lot, but I couldn't find a satisfactory answer to my question {lots of good advice though}
my project pretty much is exactly what is pictured in mike's tutorial. a stock plank with the Barrel and RR channel already cut.
for the first few steps I and going to need:
a good hack saw to cut the tenons
a few chisels/gouges for squaring up the tenon holes and inletting the lock (which I havent purchased yet)
and solid vice in which to secure the stock.
a good stone for sharpening (wife gets *#)*^~ when I use the bottoms of her crockery)
these are the only steps I'm concentrating on for now so I was hoping you folks might suggest the proper tools.
now back to reading

A good solid bench is a MUST and tools will be according to NEEDS at first
and then added to if you continue in this avocation.Buy the best quality tools
you can whether they're hand or power tools.Files and rasps are another MUST
have and a wide assortment of them makes these jobs go easier.
It took me over 40 years to accumulate what I have and knowing how to make
small tools and adapt others like bench grinders to different uses.I am proof
a poor man has poor ways but they work for me and you will find this out over
time.
Bob Roller

tiswell · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2018, 03:58:17 PM »

The chisels and gouges need to be hair splitting sharp. If you plan to build one gun you can get by with a flat plate of metal or glass and sandpaper to sharpen. You will need from say 240 up to 2000 grit paper in multiple steps. It is a cheap system initially but if you plan to build several guns then it would pay to go with stones or diamond plates. And buy quality stones or diamond plates as well. Cheap stuff is a frustration. A guide for holding flat chisels is helpful to maintain the proper angle. You will need to make or buy a leather strop and some polishing compound. I like green chrome oxide. I think buying chisel sets is a wast of money. If your barrel is inlet except for the breech you probably won't need a flat chisel over a half inch wide. Buy good tools, cheap ones will have you spending more time sharpening than using them. Brands like Dastra, Henry Taylor, Pfeil, are all top shelf. Educate yourself with the old good brand names, check flea markets or if you have the money buy new but get top quality. Hopefully others will jump in here with brands that they like.

Check out Paul Sellers on you tube. He is a master wood worker and has a great tutorial on sharpening.

You may want to get your lock purchased, there may be a wait time. And you should probably get all your other parts purchased and do an accurate layout before you get much further. I have the books mentioned above except for Susanne Warren Bicio's book. Photographs and dimensions of the gun that you plan to build are most helpful. If possible find an original and study it.

Enjoy, Bill

T*O*F · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2018, 04:03:36 PM »

A good drill and selection of drill bits. You will need to drill your barrel pin holes (buy extras of that size), lock bolt holes, buttplate and sideplate holes, tang and trigger holes, etc.

You will need to tap the tang to trigger plate hole and the locks holes. This requires the appropriate sized tap, as well as the special size drill bit to thread the holes. Likewise, you will need a countersink for the buttplate screws and for cleaning up the first thread of the tapped holes.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2018, 08:07:58 PM »

Every poster has given great advice. It occurred to me upon reading this thread that having been at this for so long, the initial tool requirements are easy to take for granted, and overlook them. When I left home I had a six quart wicker basket with two rusty chisels, a pair of pliers and side-cutter, and a couple of files that my father gave me to start out. I was 19. Now I own my own home (shop), truck, and my shop consumes 1/3 of the basement. Over the years I have accumulated over 1/4 million dollars in tool inventory, and though it is enough, I can always use more. My neighbour across the street said to me one day, "I wish I had a shop like this!" to which I replied, "sell your two quads, your pair of snowmobiles, your 30' travel trailer, and your 16' run-about boat and motor, and you'll be able to make a good start. The most I ever made during my working career(s) was $40 G and that was only for six months during a teaching contract. So if you are serious, set your priorities and be happy.

Sawfiler · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2018, 08:29:42 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on October 10, 2018, 08:07:58 PM

The most I ever made during my working career(s) was $40 G and that was only for six months during a teaching contract. So if you are serious, set your priorities and be happy.

Wow, the original poster set out looking for a tool list and five posts in gets an awesome piece of solid life advice. Great forum post.

Back to the tool lists and accumulation of tools it reminds me of the Henry Ford Quote -

"If you need a machine and don’t buy it, then you will ultimately find that you have paid for it and don’t have it."

Always buy the best quality tools you can afford, they will pay you back if you can learn to use them. Buying a new junk tool after you break the current junk tool just costs more money and pain in the end.

bnail · « **Reply #7 on:** October 11, 2018, 05:33:53 AM »

My Wife helped me prioritize my list with a simple question "What are you gonna do with the thing after you get it?
so. . . Bench construction begins tomorrow, and then a new wood vice will be mounted Center stage so when the parts arrive it can go straight on the bench and I can then prep for the next stage.

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2018, 06:22:37 AM »

bnail: Welcome to ALR! You have some good advise to start with and hear is one more thing to get started with - a good gunmaking vice. By that I mean one that not only swivels laterally but also one that rotates vertically - called a "versa vice" Garrett /Wade sell one for $ 99. It will be money well spent! Hugh Toenjes

Mike Lyons · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2018, 07:27:15 AM »

I’m not as experienced as the others, but my two favorite chisels are made from 1/8” square HSS. You can use a cut piece of broom handle and epoxy to make the handle. You’ll need tap and dies and a countersink. I bought a couple chisel sets and they were never used. Files and rasps are not created equal. I bought some pricy ones that are useless and some inexpensive ones that I like. Some cut great and some don’t. I use needle files quite a bit. As Mr Roller said, a wide selection of rasps and chisels makes the job easier. Youl’ll be an expert rasp and file operator after your build.

WKevinD · « **Reply #10 on:** October 11, 2018, 03:46:16 PM »

My first not so good gun was built on a not so good bench with not so good tools.
I realized I could do better and built a decent bench with a good vice. My main hand tools a 1/4" Pfeil chisel and three Nicholson files (two flats and a half round) drill bits countersinks and taps.
That was a long time ago. I have purchased enough unnecessary junk thinking it would make up for learned skills. I try now to only acquire what I "need" and that only comes with time. Now I have a shop full of stuff that I need.
Good luck on your endeavor. Find a mentor. Enjoy the ride.
Kevin

bnail · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2018, 04:41:58 PM »

Quote from: burnt on October 11, 2018, 03:46:16 PM

. . . I have purchased enough unnecessary junk thinking it would make up for learned skills. . . . Kevin

That sounds like me when I was learning guitar so many years ago. I had to have every stomp box and gadget they made. those who understood always said that "tone is in the fingers" and I think the same applies here. I'm old enough, and patient enough, to appreciate that a "smarter" mechanic, not a smarter tool is what I need to shoot for.

ed lundquist · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2018, 03:42:33 PM »

Good lighting is an absolute necessity. A north facing window is a great start but mat not be an option. I find multiple light angles help me when shaping the stock, there is alot revealed in produced shadow lines. It's tough to do fine work if you can't see.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2018, 04:05:48 PM »

Quote from: ed lundquist on October 12, 2018, 03:42:33 PM

Good lighting is an absolute necessity. A north facing window is a great start but mat not be an option. I find multiple light angles help me when shaping the stock, there is alot revealed in produced shadow lines. It's tough to do fine work if you can't see.

My main work bench is North facing and under a 3'x6' window.There are two identical ones
in the East and West walls. The South wall is owned by an old Amana air conditioner installed
in 1976 and so far it keeps me comfortable and working in comfort is a prerequisite to doing
good work.My "wood working"bench is also under that AC. I have a wide variety of rasps and
other small tools in a machinists box with drawers.Afghan Vet mentioned needle files.Needle
or miniature WOOD working rasps can be a real help in stock making and I have two sets.
There is no advice I can give on rifle making because there are too many on this forum that
can do far and away better at that than I can. I can build a GUN but RIFLES are made by
craftsmen

.and in some cases,women.

Bob Roller

Obi2winky · « **Reply #14 on:** October 23, 2018, 04:40:46 PM »

In terms of chisels, I saw on Jim Kibler’s website to get a 1/8 and1/4 to start. I was surfing around for one and I saw that there are palm, intermediate and full sized chisels. What size is recommended? Thanks!

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2018, 04:48:01 PM »

Don't get too carried away getting a whole bunch of tools. You saw on my tutorial how few I actually use.

bnail · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2018, 05:06:19 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on October 23, 2018, 04:48:01 PM

Don't get too carried away getting a whole bunch of tools. You saw on my tutorial how few I actually use.

I prefer the minimalist approach but also I'm trying to model my set up on your example Mike. I saw early on that this endeavor privides endless opportunity for spending money. i am just going to acquire my tools on an as needed basis and get the best i can.

Obi2winky · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2018, 06:09:42 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on October 23, 2018, 04:48:01 PM

Don't get too carried away getting a whole bunch of tools. You saw on my tutorial how few I actually use.

I was planning on getting just the two recommended but wasn’t sure which handle size to get. I saw how big the full size one was and thought it was too big. But without any prior experience, I have no real wya of knowing so thought you guys could guide me what the handle size should be.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2018, 06:44:30 PM »

I don't like palm chisels much, can't drive them with a mallet.

Obi2winky · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2018, 06:46:52 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on October 23, 2018, 06:44:30 PM

I don't like palm chisels much, can't drive them with a mallet.

Gotcha, thanks for the info! Any advice between large and intermediate size? I was looking at Pfeil chisels for reference.

Bill Raby · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2018, 07:15:21 PM »

All my chisels are the full size ones. I would not get any small or intermediate sizes.

Obi2winky · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2018, 08:42:22 PM »

Quote from: Bill Raby on October 23, 2018, 07:15:21 PM

All my chisels are the full size ones. I would not get any small or intermediate sizes.

I shall try out the full sized ones then. Thank you!

flinchrocket · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2018, 11:06:29 PM »

Ryan at MBS has some inletting chisels that he makes, I think they run $12. I bought 5 different ones about 15 yrs ago and I use them 95% of the time. The're pretty good chisels.

little joe · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2018, 12:00:58 AM »

Watch the Gunsmith of Williamsburg and you will see what can be done with a few tools.

M. E. Pering · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2018, 05:28:42 AM »

The longer I build guns, the fewer tools I realize I need. When I built my first rifle, I had very few tools... A couple of chisels and a few files. And thinking about it, that is really all you need to get started. That gun is what I refer to as a "Kitchen Table" gun, because that was my bench at the time, much to the chagrin and disdain of my wife and Mother-in-law. Regardless, that is where I built it slowly over a period of 2 years. No vise, no bench, no jigs and worse, no idea what I was doing. But I did eventually finish it, and as hideous as it is, I keep it. It is not that my workmanship was bad, but my ignorance of architecture made it an ugly thing.

Now this was not the fault of my lack of tools... To the contrary, the inletting and fitting are really pretty good. And it only took me a minimum of tools. I had a set of 5 palm chisels, a 1/4" straight chisel, a jeweler's saw and a few files. Yes, I did relief carve it, thus the reason for the palm chisels. Also needed the palm chisels for inletting too. But really, you don't need many tools if you are not doing any forging or casting of your own parts.

One thing I would highly, highly recommend is a few good stones for sharpening and making a strop for them. These I consider absolute requirements. You must have sharp tools to do this type of work. And you must learn to use them properly. I really can't emphasize this enough. Dull tools not only cause accidents, but slow you down.

M. E. Pering

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Author Topic: First tools (Read 3604 times)

bnail

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bnail

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