Author Topic: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....  (Read 459 times)

Offline JohnHBryan

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Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« on: October 11, 2018, 06:43:45 PM »
Can anyone shed some light on this flintlock wall gun?  I've looked for the proof marks but can't find anything.













Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 07:11:55 PM »
We need some nice square on shots, John.

Lock in particular.

Best,
Richard.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 07:21:39 PM »
Looks like it was stocked in oak, of all things.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline smart dog

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 07:28:04 PM »
Hi,
To start with the upper barrel mark is for Nuremberg, Germany after 1650 I believe.  I cannot make out the other marks.  The gun impresses me as a product of the late 17th century.  The stock looks to be oak.  If the second barrel mark is an "N" over "R", according to my references that indicates a Nuremberg barrel date possibly as old as 1595 but the gun is clearly much later

dave
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Offline JohnHBryan

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 08:12:34 PM »
Thanks.  Here's a little better view of the lock.



This is in the North House Museum in Lewisburg, WV and for years was displayed as the gun used by Dick Pointer at the attack of Fort Donnally, who allegedly grabbed a big old musket loaded with swan shot and killed multiple Indians who were trying to get through the fort door.  Another museum, the state museum in Charleston, WV, claims to also have the Dick Pointer gun.  Someone sent me this.  It is claimed to be the bottom gun.  Though they also apparently are claiming the top rifle belonged to Lewis Wetzel in the 18th century, which clearly isn't the case:



« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 08:25:24 PM by JohnHBryan »

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 08:26:23 PM »
 8) 8)... John,... welcome to this site,... enjoy your FB historical posts,... you are on the best site for research & info on these old guns,... I will be following comments on this one,..... regards, CCF,...

Offline JohnHBryan

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 08:37:37 PM »
Thanks.  You might appreciate this.  That top gun in the Charleston museum looks very close to this one I have sitting here in my office:





Offline smart dog

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2018, 12:42:41 AM »
Hi John,
Just so I am clear, I am not guessing on at least 1 of the barrel marks.  The barrel was made in Nuremberg, Germany.  What I thought might be an "N" over "R" on zoom clearly shows the N over another shield that may contain some sort of eagle.  Anyway, it is definitely German and I strongly suspect a product of the 17th century.  I cannot place the lock. It looks a little like a British sea service lock but I think it is too large.  The Dutch also made locks like that.  I wonder if there are any markings on it.

dave 
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 12:56:42 AM »
Dave,

The barrel & rear sight look 17th C or even later 16th C to me.  Some of these old barrels were stocked up numerous times.
In the 30 years wars Any barrel available was re-stocked for use.  There was a desperate shortage.

It'd be interesting to see if this old hagbut barrel has that hook attached to the barrel as it  should be. I am almost certain such is the case.
If so, it may well be early 16th C and re-marked in Nurnburg later when restocked.
Is that a plow on the upper mark?  If so, that mark was used in the early 16th C.

Close-ups of the marks, and a good straight on shot of the lock would help us, if possible John.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 02:24:58 AM »
Hi Richard,
The iron "hook" is not like the war hammer hooks on old "hagbuts" but I believe a device meant to hook over a parapet in a fort to absorb recoil or steady the gun.  If you have access to a copy of Robert Brooker's "Landeszeughaus Graz, Austria" you will see dozens of wall or rampart guns fitted with barrels with those hooks dating as far back as the early 16th century.  The rear sight on that gun is exactly like those produced in Nuremberg as early as the 1580s.

dave
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 05:38:23 AM »
Dave,

I don't have the book you mention, but quite agree this type of hook was used even back into the 1520's.  Maybe I should have spelled it Haquebut...
The rear sight has altered very little since those of the 1520-'s to 30's as well.  (Still square with a parallel groove)

I was mistaken on the plow.  The plow is the city arms of Straubing, Lower Bavaria.

I'm sure I have seen that  mark nearest the sight before, but can't find it again at present!

Offline JohnHBryan

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 04:02:43 PM »
Thanks for the info.  I knew it was old from looking at it, but I didn't realize the barrel was that old.  As for a better photo of the lock, I don't have any right now.  I'll have to go back when I get a chance.  I was kind of rushed when I snapped a few pics of it, and didn't think at the time I'd be posting them for anyone to examine.

Offline n stephenson

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 04:25:24 PM »
Very neat!  There is also an old gun stocked in Oak in Grinslade`s  fowler book. It too has no butt plate . Not related to this gun , I don`t believe . That trigger is nice and wide. Thanks for posting.

Offline JohnHBryan

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2018, 05:21:43 PM »
I was trying to get a pic of the curled big trigger behind the ram rod.  I wasn't allowed to touch, so it wasn't easy.  So I received a 1989 historical society report on the two competing allegations of the two different museums having the Dick Pointer gun.  In it, the WV state museum "armorer" gives the opinion that the wall gun could have been completely built in the colonies, and that it was not from Germany, as the original order had noted in his letter when he sold it to the museum.  I suppose this is the same individual who believes that later built percussion kentucky fought Indians on the Virginia frontier.  I'm tending to feel this big gun has the better claim.  It belonged to Governor MacCorkle, of West Virginia, who was a big collector of WV objects.  It is also more consistent with the load allegedly shot out of the barrel.

In Ann Royall's description of the attack on Fort Donnally, she included the following description:

The inhabitants flew to Donnally's Fort, to the amount of three hundred souls. It was late in the evening before they were all fairly in, principally women and children: there were but four men besides Col. Donnally, and a negro man belonging to him, and three or four guns in the fort. The negro's name was Dick Pointer, and Dick saved the fort! On the same night the Indians drew near, old Dick (as he now is, for he is still living,) and the four men, were standing guard. Col. Donnally's house made a part of the fort, the front of it forming a line with the same, the door of the house being the door of the fort. Near this door, Dick and his companions were stationed, and about midnight Dick espied, through a port- hole, something moving, but the night was so dark, and the object making no noise, it was long before he discovered it to be an Indian, creeping up to the door on all fours. The negro pointed it out to his companions, and asked "if he might shoot;" "no," they replied, not yet. In about twenty minutes after this, a large force was at the door, thundering it to pieces with tomahawks, stones, and whatever weapon offered. The door being of the stoutest sort, resisted their efforts for some time; at length they forced one of the planks. Dick, (who, from every account, is as brave as Cesar,) had charged his musket well with old nails, pieces of iron, and buck shot; when the first plank dropped, he cried out to his master, "May I shoot now, sir?" "Not yet, Dick:" he stood ready, with his gun cocked. The Indians, meanwhile, were busy, and the second plank began to tremble. "O master, may I shoot now?" "Not yet," his master replied. The second plank falls; "Now Dick," said his master; he fired, killed three, and wounded several; the Indians ran into some rye, with which their fort was surrounded, leaving the dead bodies at the door. Shortly after this, or at least before day, they were attacked by a large party of men, under the command of Col. Samuel Lewis, who had, during the while, been collecting and preparing for that purpose, and were totally routed by these men. Mrs. Welsh's husband, Arbuckle, was one of them. But had it not been for Dick Painter's [sic] well-timed shot, every soul in the fort must have been massacred. (*This house is still standing, and the bullet holes made in it by the Indians when they were attacked by the whites, are still visible. Mr. A. Rayder now lives in it.) I have had the relation from several persons, and from old Dick himself. The poor old creature wanders about very shabby: the country does allow him something, but his principal support is derived from donations by gentlemen, who visit this place and admire his character. He does not know hold old he is, he thinks he was twenty-five at the attack of Donnally's Fort. His head is as white as wool, which, contrasted with his black keen eye, gives him a singular appearance. His master, some years after the signal service he rendered his country, set him free.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Flintlock Wall/Rampart gun ID help....
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2018, 08:54:50 PM »
Hi John,
Just so I am clear, I am not guessing on at least 1 of the barrel marks.  The barrel was made in Nuremberg, Germany.  What I thought might be an "N" over "R" on zoom clearly shows the N over another shield that may contain some sort of eagle.  Anyway, it is definitely German and I strongly suspect a product of the 17th century.  I cannot place the lock. It looks a little like a British sea service lock but I think it is too large.  The Dutch also made locks like that.  I wonder if there are any markings on it.

dave

Has for English locks they came in all sizes depending on the type  of gun or rifle .Enclosed is a image of 12 inch  flintlock converted to percussion from  punt guns or has you know has market guns

Feltwad



« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 08:59:25 PM by Feltwad »