Request for advice about 19th century English flintlock rifles

[smart dog]

Hi,
I am at the stage at which I am making my final choices regarding the details of shaping the stock for a late flint English rifle.  I seek advice on shaping the end of the comb.  During the 1820s, there seems to be 2 dominant designs for the butt stock. One has the comb almost blending into the wrist and a very short wrist section behind the lock panels.  There are rifles by John Manton, Staudenmayer, Nock and others showing that design. The other design seems to have a much longer wrist and a prominent comb with an abrupt end that is almost perpendicular to the wrist.  Examples showing this design by both Mantons, Mortimer, and many others commonly exist.  The rifle I am building has a prominent comb so the latter design is appropriate but I wondered if there are any examples on which the nose of the comb swoops down to the wrist in a concave fashion like many long rifles.  I honestly have not encountered any English made sporting guns from the early 19th century with comb ends like that.  I would love to see or hear about any examples of English late flintlock era sporting guns members might be aware of that have those concave shaped noses to the combs.

dave     

[smylee grouch]

Hi Dave: I'm sure you probably have seen the three guns pictured in J.N. George's book English Guns and Rifles. The John Manton is my favorite but the Twigg and Mortimer both have a drop off comb also, not real pronounced on any one of the three but there non the less.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any with a concave swoop after the 1780's, until we get into the maybe 1860's and 70's. in other words early breechloaders. I will see what I can find though.
The other style you mention,  (Comb merging into a very short wrist) while very distinctive, might be a shade early for your build, but maybe Not!.
I am afraid I loaned both my Manton books to someone a few years ago, and they have yet to be returned!

I know Twigg is a bit early Dave, but here is a relic with the sort of nose to the comb I think you are looking for. Is this correct?




An old Weston I have has the abrupt style.  It is likely 1820's or thereabouts.



The one below is maybe a decent example of halfway between the other two, but it is a bit early, maybe 1815.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thanks Smylee.  I do have George's book and both of Neal's Manton books.  I also have a book on Mortimer and the other books by Neal and Back.  I've also visited Geoff Walker's "Flintlock Collection" and Lewis Drake's websites and several other online resources. My biggest problem is that I've only handled 2 English rifles from the first half of the 19th century and both were very early percussion guns.  Compared with fowlers, the Brits just did not make that many rifles during the late 18th and early 19th centuries so they are uncommon. 

Thanks a lot Richard!  The last gun you showed may be the ticket.  It is almost the spitting image of what I have now including the cheek piece. The second one is also very interesting in that the rear scroll of the guard is short of the comb.  Most seem to have that scroll line up with the comb. On my rifle so far the distance from the breech of the barrel (not the standing breech) to bottom of the step for the comb is 6 7/8" or a bit less than one lock plate length behind the lock mortice.  Something that I found really interesting Richard.  The comb is straight on top from butt plate heel to the end of the comb. I filed it perfectly straight and checked it with a straight edge.  Then I stepped back at looked at the gun from a few feet away and @!*% if the comb looked to have an ugly sag in the middle but it was an illusion.  So I filed just a couple of millimeters of drop in the comb and sure enough, from a distance the comb looks perfectly straight.  What our senses perceive is not always what actually exists.

dave   

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

I could take more photos of the last one. I do have some, but the backgrounds get in the way. Me trying to be artistic and all!
Have attached one that May show a little..

When you first mentioned this, my mind said go Germanic, as English gunmakers of the time often appeared at sea, and followed German style. (That and Germanic being a fashion at the time)
You are definitely right!!...about what the senses perceive.   These things can not be made by merely using measurements.


This stock is built heavier towards the toe than the heel.  I think Hawker reckoned this helped balance...weight lower.



I just added that pic as it was there Dave, but you know Much more than I do about these And the fine details! 
I'd suggest you just make it look right, and it Will be right.  :-)

[smart dog]

Thanks Richard!  Those photos are perfect.  My stock is not thicker at the toe, and in that, is more like earlier and perhaps, later guns.  My wrist is a little longer but the basic shape from the side is the same as the gun you show.  The next question, Richard, flat topped checkering, sharp checkering, or something in between?  All styles seem to have been used although I am not sure I've seen examples closeup on which 90 degree cutters were used to make sharp pyramids.  I am thinking about using 60 degree cutters for sharper checkering than the typical flat topped checkering.  I made the right style almost vertical checkering cutters for flat topped so I should be able to do any style.

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

I'd say your 60 degree would be about perfect.
Making them as you did you can file them up as much as you wish, but a little flat seems ideal to me.  Not too much, but not to a sharp point as later....and not too fine.  :-)

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
I am thinking 16 or 18 lines per inch.

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Dead on, Dave.

I have a 16 lines  I use.