Author Topic: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??  (Read 701 times)

Offline davec2

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Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« on: October 14, 2018, 04:23:27 AM »
Ok....I work with gold all the time....but before I go to the trouble of inventing my own method of lining a touch hole with gold (and then finding out there was a smarter way to do it), I would like to ask if anyone know how it was done in the 18th century.  ???

Thanks
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Offline bgf

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2018, 07:33:51 AM »
Not a clue, way above my pay grade, but I remember (or seem to) a discussion in which Gary Brumfield described some liners that were simple disks sitting in a counter bore and peened in plus held by the lock!

Looking for that discussion (hopelessly, I'm afraid), I found this post where Curtis seems to have a period correct approach:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40237.msg414574#msg414574

Offline Curtis

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 07:46:29 AM »
Bgf, you beat me to it!  I'm glad someone remembered my post!  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40237.msg414574#msg414574

Dave, basically the gold touch hole liner is a rivet.  If you scroll up from bgf's link you can see the tools I made as well as the method I used to create the internal and external cones.  I used 14k gold for the liner, however I had a conversation with Mark Silver and he stressed using 24k gold because it will not work harden - sage advise.  I managed with the 14k gold however on my current project I will use 24k gold, guaranteed.  I believe the general process of creating the internal and external coned holes, and peening in a "rivet" of gold is historically correct as explained to me by Jack Brooks and later confirmed by Mr. Silver.  I will be happy to answer any question that I can.  The liner can be coned on the inside before inserting, and of course after inserting as well.

Curtis
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 08:30:59 AM by Curtis »
Curtis Allinson

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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Online Rolf

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 11:44:20 AM »
Frank House shows how to cast a gold touch-hole liner in the dvd "Gun Builders Companion volum one, dic 2.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 03:26:24 PM »
That is truly nice work, Curtis, and showed some good imagination to come up with your coning tool.

I have worked with a lot of gold (and silver!), but was always shying away from using 24kt.  Don't know why, but I just didn't.  Probably fear of messing up a costly job.  So mostly used 18kt that I would get from Brazil - had a jeweler friend there who was very helpful.

Was wanting to cast a bit of silver the other week, but lacked flux.  Then on a trip to my local "big box" store, I found "20 Mule Team Boraxo".  Six pound box, so I got enough to get me through my silver job, with about 5.99999 lb left over!  Guess I will have to find another casting job to use the rest of the box.  Or start using it in the washing machine!

Really appreciate you posting that lesson in making coning tools, and the gold part.  And I can see where using 24kt gold would be best.  Many thanks for a job well done.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline blienemann

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 10:59:39 PM »
While working with arms historians in England on the recent Moravian Gunmaking II, several there explained this is a thin disc of gold inlaid into an undercut circle and peened in place - much like a nameplate on a barrel, and this apparently matches what Gary Brumfield found.  This was a surprise to me and others, but these gentlemen are Curator Emeritus of the Royal Armories and the Queen's Armorer, have handled, broken down, studied and had craftsmen recreate many of these arms or details through their lifetimes.  Bob

Offline smart dog

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 12:27:31 AM »
Hi,
Yes, I believe Bob is correct.  On 2 dueling pistols that I examined, it seems the touch hole liner was a disk dovetailed into the breech with a touch hole drilled in it.  I was told that the inside of the barrel wall was coned to the disk but I could not see that for myself.  I do not believe the liner was a rivet-like part similar to a white lightning liner.  Gold pan liners were also dovetailed int place.

dave
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2018, 01:00:01 AM »
DaceC2,

Gold looks nice, but platinum will outlast it by miles.
Just a thought.  ":-)....not good for18th C though, but OK for 19th.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 01:07:20 AM »
Dave
  I did a lot of research on this and my conclusion is they used a rivet, sometimes platinum and sometimes 24K gold.  I believe the rivet was a solid piece and then drilled after installation. But the installation  process is a guess.  The gold liners do not last as long as you might think. For that reason I have faked some of them by just installing 24 ga. gold overlays on the outside of a chambers liner.
Single tooth style overlays on the gold overlays. I have done a lot of these and believe the London Gunmakers did the same thing, thus the controversy. Some were genuine liners and some were fake as the disc described which is what I did also. Just a undercut alone will not hold long without the single teeth to hold in the center.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 01:13:35 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 01:13:00 AM »
While working with arms historians in England on the recent Moravian Gunmaking II, several there explained this is a thin disc of gold inlaid into an undercut circle and peened in place - much like a nameplate on a barrel, and this apparently matches what Gary Brumfield found.  This was a surprise to me and others, but these gentlemen are Curator Emeritus of the Royal Armories and the Queen's Armorer, have handled, broken down, studied and had craftsmen recreate many of these arms or details through their lifetimes.  Bob

Bob,
thanks for chiming in on this thread, it's wonderful to hear what you learned in your research.

I may try that method on my Christian's Spring Rifle

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline G_T

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 03:42:14 AM »
Gold is a long way from having suitable materials properties for a barrel, particularly 24ct gold. It is very soft and very weak. On the plus side, on overpressure, it might blow out before the barrel blows up. I'm surprised it survived any length of time at all.

Gerald

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 04:10:27 AM »
Dave, do you mean like the outer edge of the touch hole liner being lined in gold?   


Or the entire liner being made from gold?

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 07:14:43 AM »
Mauser,

Very often just a gold disc fitted flush over a touchhole, and drilled. They didn't last all that long but could be replaced if they blew off.
Have seen a Nock like that with disc missing.  Think the idea was a gold seal about the priming, as often a gold lined pan was also used.

The one on that tubelock barrel I showed is more complex, having a step for the tube to butt up against, all in gold.


Offline Curtis

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Re: Gold Lined Touch Hole ??
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 07:56:34 AM »
Bob, Dave, Jerry, and Pukka, thanks for posting your insights, research information and observations!  This board is truly a wealth of knowledge and experience.  I am always learning something here.

And thanks for your comment Craig, I had a lot of fun building that rifle and the related tools.

Curtis
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing