Author Topic: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals  (Read 2769 times)

Offline 120RIR

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XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« on: October 23, 2018, 10:40:48 PM »
Concerning the debated European vs. American attributions of some early rifles, other than architecture and embellishment, there appears to be a focus on the species of wood used in the stocks but I haven't seen any reference to the metals which brings me to XRF analysis.  X-ray fluorescence (XRF) analysis is a technique used determine the elemental composition of materials (including metals). XRF analyzers determine the chemistry of a sample by measuring the fluorescent (or secondary) X-ray emitted from a sample when it is excited by a primary X-ray source.  This is completely non-destructive and can be done with readily-available hand-held units.  It wouldn't necessarily be the case today of course with our global economy and trade patterns, but 18th century metals would have been produced using raw material from generally (emphasis on "generally") local sources. Each raw material would have a specific chemical signature based on local and regional mineral variations.  Consequently, a brass trigger guard manufactured in Germany during the 1700s would have a signature very different than one manufactured using copper or tin from an American mine (yes...I know...trans-Atlantic trade possibly diluting samples).  The same would also be true for iron used in barrels, locks, etc. assuming an American gunsmith or founder wasn't using scrap or bulk materials from Europe.  I would think iron/steel would be a better indicator since iron was being mined very early on in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York at the very least.   Determining where the metals came from would certainly provide indications of where the rifle itself could have originated.  Just my two cents.  Other thoughts?

Offline spgordon

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 10:52:20 PM »
This is a great idea.

Moravians at Christiansbrunn were buying gun barrels (and locks) from Philadelphia in the 1760s and the 1770s. I've going through box after box after box of tiny receipts and have found a few documenting these purchases. The locks might have been imported to Philadelphia from Europe and then purchased by Moravian authorities. I wonder about the barrels? I would guess, like you, that they were of local manufacture at a local barrel mill. But don't know.

At the time of the receipt below, Albrecht was still at Christiansbrunn.


« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 10:57:45 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline 120RIR

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 11:42:04 PM »
It'd make for one $#*! of a history M.A. thesis. 

Offline rich pierce

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 11:54:53 PM »
Maybe I’ll go back and get another degree. I think the testing would be cool especially to learn if smiths here were using common sources of European and local sources of furniture and barrels.
Andover, Vermont

Offline 120RIR

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2018, 12:53:34 AM »
When did barrel mills first start operating in eastern Pennsylvania?  Could some of the earliest makers have taken advantage of such an industry or did they not exist until later?  I would think the earliest gunsmiths in Bethlehem, Christian's Springs, etc. were making their own barrels...or not necessarily?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2018, 01:24:57 AM »
I believe most of the pre-War (Rev War) pieces were using a fairly large proportion of imported components and certainly, prior to the War, I would speculate that most were using imported locks and barrels.  Bob would be the one to provide what you're asking in regard to the Moravians but in PA, I think most of the locks and/or barrels prior to Oerter's time as master of the CS shop were probably imported.

When we get to the Oerter pieces with the cast two-piece boxes, and much more consistent furniture, while it can not be said definitively, I think it *likely* that such brassware was being cast in-house.  imho.

I don't believe any foundry operations or barrel forging operations in the Northampton Co. area prior to the Rev War would have been profitable at all.  I may stand corrected and I'll have to go look through my notes but I don't remember coming across much other than the occasional 'locksmith' in old records here or there, in that region.  Possibly way over in Berks closer to Reading, or in NJ over the river from Easton area where there were ironworks

I'll have to look back through the NC records, but at Bethabara in NC, it may have been more likely that barrels were being forged if there was a demand, largely due to the increased difficulty in access to ready-made components.  I know I remember a quote somewhere about an apprentice of Andreas Betz I believe (paraphrasing) never properly learning to bore and rifle a barrel.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2018, 03:17:03 AM »
Just two of the receipts I've found reveal that Christiansbrunn purchased 7 gun barrels from Jan to Sept 1770--again, when Albrecht was still there.

We don't really know the size of production in that shop. We know that the gunshop had between four and eight finished or “new” rifles in stock when inventories were taken in 1764, 1765, and 1766. (That doesn't necessarily mean that between four and eight were completed new each year--it could be more or it could be fewer.)

Perhaps all these rifles were made with barrels purchased from Philadelphia? After all, we don't know whether there are more receipts than the ones that have survived (or some that survived that I haven't found).
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2018, 03:25:11 AM »
It's also more probable than not that even if some of the early attributed Moravian pieces were utilizing barrels forged at Bethlehem or (1760s) CS, the iron itself was more than likely being purchased from elsewhere as opposed to being produced somewhere nearby.  Ditto with brass castings:  the brass almost certainly was coming from elsewhere, not from alloys being extracted locally to Northampton Co. or anywhere nearby.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline wildcatter

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2018, 05:05:27 PM »
Fascinating concept, XRF Analysis. I know research has been done on particular gun parts like trigger guards, carving, locks, styles, etc, to date and compare early American rifles. I'm curious if any other attributes like barrel rifling styles (groves or lands) , or barrel wedge placements etc, have been compared? I'm sure there is a discussion on it somewhere, just haven't seen it .

Matt
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2018, 05:30:31 PM »
From reading others’ research, rifle barrels were often purchased, imported from Europe, before the Revolutionary War.  Now it may be that Philadelphia importers had different suppliers than importers in Southern ports. But I’m not sure we know that there were standards for exported rifle barrels from all of England or Germany, for example.

So we know about several general styles of export English and Germanic locks from the period but less about rifle barrels. We do know that gun builders at Christians Spring used a variety of English and Germanic imported locks and made at least one lock here.

Construction techniques seem to me to be specific to a builder and their apprentices more than a regional characteristic, but others see things clearly, that are opaque to me.
Andover, Vermont

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2018, 09:47:27 PM »
Strange this should come up but in my Ketland research I've been looking into the imported lock trade. The earliest newspaper advertisement for gun locks I've seen so far was dated about 1737 (I forget the other details but I think it might have been in New York)...Interestingly, there are never advertisements listing "gun locks" in England.

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 06:47:22 PM »
It'd make for one $#*! of a history M.A. thesis.

More like archaeology.  That would be interesting to see and quite the undertaking.
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Offline 120RIR

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2018, 11:13:53 PM »
I'm really giving this some serious thought.  We use XRF in archaeology all the time (sourcing stone material from prehistoric sites) but I claim no expertise in the process at all.  I just submit samples to the subcontractor and in a short while I get a nice neat report of where the material came from.  I'm assuming sourcing material (stone, metal, whatever) relies at least in part on a database of regional chemical signatures of the material in question.  Consequently, I think (emphasis on "think") the only way this would work would be if there were a pre-existing specific materials database and if not, one could be created.  If one had to be created it would indeed be a significant undertaking.  However, if said databases were already out there, it could be quite easy and the only real logistical hurdle might be accessing the desired rifles.  Oh to be retired! 

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2018, 09:22:05 PM »
It has long been a belief of mine that many tons of iron were shipped back to Europe, mainly to Great Britain.  Would this not "clog up" the research a good bit if that iron were turned into barrels and locks in GB, then shipped back to America?
It IS a great tool for research.  I paid my way through a good bit of university by doing gas chromatography on soil samples, trying to determine heavy metal toxicity in the soil due to lead mines in Oklahoma.  That was a "destructive" technique, however, as soil samples had to be dissolved in acids, then sucked up into, and burned at very high temps so that the spectrum could be evaluated.
The non-destructive means used in XRF would be greatly preferred, as absolutely no harm would be done to the item tested.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline spgordon

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2018, 09:51:15 PM »
When William Henry II got started in Nazareth in 1780, his father supplied him with some money and "glass, nails, an anvil, bellows, and a ˝ a ton [of] iron."

What sort of products would a half ton of iron yield for a small gunshop? Or I guess I mean how much product?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 05:00:18 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Brent English

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2018, 02:19:43 AM »
Wouldn't imported barrels have proof marks?  Also, also as lengths, weights and calibers were different in the US vs Europe, wouldn't they have had to be special order?  Wouldn't we also see some sort of standardization?  One would think there would be records of that.  One possible scenario is that flat bars of iron were imported and then forged to the customers requirements.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2018, 02:31:30 AM »
Some imported barrels would have proof marks.  I think this would depend on the source and timeframe.  There are a few early rifles with a deep maker’s mark on the barrel.

For the original question, a half ton of iron could make barrels and small parts like triggers and breech pins and bolts and screws and sights and also one could shoe the occasional horse.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Goo

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2018, 04:55:57 AM »
So whats the plan for gathering data? Can you get collectors to actually agree to gather data off these treasures?    Might be easier to gather control data off architectural structures and other known things like equipment rail spikes maybe iron was iron ?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 04:59:02 AM by Goo »
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Offline 120RIR

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 08:42:30 PM »
As of this point in time there is no plan...just the idea.  Maybe I'll pursue it at a future date, or maybe someone else will but considering the XRF process is completely non-destructive, one would hope that early rifle owners, be they private individuals or institutions, would be interested in the concept and possibilities and provide access.  As for the control data, such information might already be out there but one thing is for sure, iron produced in different regions would almost certainly have different chemical signatures. 
Again, I claim no expertise at this time in the details of the XRF process.  I am just familiar with the results in my own work-a-day world.

Offline Clint

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2018, 04:46:46 AM »
It would be very interesting to set up an XRF aperatus at a large show or museum and offer the experiment voluntarily . As far as foreign vs domestically produced barrels, I would ask Where else were eight sided long barrels being used to build rifles. If long barreled rifles were not common in the 'industrialized' centers of Europe, then there must have been an exclusive niche for making barrels for the Americans. We tend to think in terms of our own limitations  because it is not possible to actually think and work in the context of someone else's time period and social setting. Try to imagine the amount of work and organization it would take to construct a two story house, a ship or an order of committee of safety muskets. All of this kind of contracting was done with mostly hand tools and it was done on a relatively large scale. I have hammered iron and steel for over forty years and it is very easy for me to imagine a team of skilled workmen, four to six men or boys, rough forging three or four barrels a day, day after day. I have forged quite a few locks and after the first dozen or so they get fairly easy. The toughest thing about forging barrels is feeding that big hungry fire, the hammering/welding is simple and straight forward. Just my two cents.
Clint

Offline Arnie Dowd

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2018, 04:40:12 PM »
In your opinion -  would this process be of any value in attempting to reveal add'l engraving which is now unreadable on silver plates inlet into the top flat of a rifle.  In other words, an example would be where there are visible partial letters of a signature which would probably reveal the maker or owner of a rifle ?
Thanks, Arnie Dowd

Offline 120RIR

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Re: XRF Analysis of Longrifle Metals
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2018, 05:26:06 PM »
XRF only provides information on chemical signatures and would have no application in discerning old engraving or marks. 

I noticed that there is a lot of focus on barrels in this discussion but don't forget - there are plenty of other parts one could test; locks parts, and brass hardware.  Results could shed light on where all the metal components of a long rifle were being made or at least where the metal being used in their production had its origins.