Author Topic: I would like some help with this rifle  (Read 2455 times)

Online Dennis Glazener

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I would like some help with this rifle
« on: October 31, 2018, 11:56:07 PM »
This rifle is stamped R B Gillespie on the lock plate (see photos) which is different from the other two R B Gillespie rifles that I have found. The other two are stamped on the barrel with block print very much like what this one has.

John Gillespie my GGG GF (VA/SC/NC gunmaker) had a brother named Thomas, Thomas fought at Kings Mountain as part of the Washington County VA Milita. His commanding officer was Rees Bowen of Maiden Spring, Tazewell County VA. Rees was killed at Kings Mountain and the family story goes that Thomas Gillespie brought Rees's boots back to Rees's wife and while there met Margaret, Rees's daughter. They were later married and lived near Maiden Spring. They named one of their sons Rees Bowen Gillespie after Margaret's father (the one killed at Kings Mountain). I have bits and pieces of information that indicates Thomas Gillespie was a trained blacksmith and gun maker but I have nothing to indicate that his son R. B. Gillespie (evidently he went by his initials) was a gun maker. Then three rifles pop up with R. B. Gillespie stamped on the barrels. No provenance for any of the three rifles.

I would like good estimates on when the rifle shown below most likely was made so I can compare to the R. B. Gillespie that I believe him to be.

Since this one has the name on the lock instead of the barrel do you think he may have made the lock as well as the rifle?
What about the breech? I am not familiar with these type breech's but this one looks different that most I have seen, possibly made by the same man that built the rifle?

Any other comments that might help me place the general area that this rifle may have originated?
Dennis
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 12:00:43 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Online smart dog

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2018, 12:52:04 AM »
Hi Dennis,
I am sorry but I cannot add to your historical knowledge base but the inletting on that gun is of high-end British quality.  That is remarkable.

dave
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Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2018, 03:05:21 AM »
I noticed that. That's one reason I am having problems with this. Workmanship of that quality, at least 3 surviving signed guns and no record of a R. B. Gillespie as a gunmaker.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2018, 04:34:43 AM »
Dennis,

That style of breech plug was likely developed relatively early in percussion cap period.  I believe it was developed in England and quickly moved to the US, particularly Philadelphia.  Henry Deringer was using a similar shaped bolster on his guns in the late 1820s.  The form probably spread out from there over the next decade.

Jake and Sam Hawken had adopted a similar style bolster by the mid-1830s and likely used it into the 1840s.  They often brazed the bolster onto the breech end of the barrel rather than making a separate patent breech, though.

J&S Hawken also used that shape of lock plate with the radius curve in the transition from the lock bolster to the nose of the lock on many of their rifles that likely date to the 1830s and 1840s.

I would guess that your rifle could date to the late 1830s at the earliest, possibly the 1840s, but the overall style with the pewter nose cap and half stock configuration suggests 1850s.

It's interesting to note that the Hawken brothers also used hollow ribs on their half stock rifles and filled the end with solder like your rifle.  That must have been a wide spread practice.

As to the general area that this rifle may have originated, Leman used a similar shaped butt plate and the stock has classic Lancaster lines, but by the 1850s, this pattern of rifle could have been made anywhere along the Ohio River or the Mississippi River from St. Louis to New Orleans.  That's almost like saying anywhere west of the Appalachian Mountains.

The cracks in the lug of the breech plug where it joins the tang are interesting.  I can't tell if they are indications that the tang was forge welded to the breech plug or if they are from a piece of slag trapped when the plug and tang were forged as one piece.  Either way, the quality of the forging and the quality of the filing or finishing of the bolster seem to suggest local manufacture to me.
Phil Meek

Offline Tanselman

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2018, 04:59:30 AM »
Regarding the question of whether R. B. Gillespie made the lock...in the larger picture of the lock, it seems to me I can see traces of another, original stamped name underneath the Gillespie stamp. If so, Gillespie probably cleaned off the lock's old surface to remove most of the old name, re-stamped it, but did not make the lock. There also appears to be a very slight "fish belly" in the lower butt line back toward the toe. That type patent breech was also used in Kentucky in the late 1840s and later. I would guesstimate, along with the small bore, this rifle is no earlier than the mid-1850s, and maybe later. Shelby Gallien

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2018, 03:44:23 PM »
Regarding the question of whether R. B. Gillespie made the lock...in the larger picture of the lock, it seems to me I can see traces of another, original stamped name underneath the Gillespie stamp. If so, Gillespie probably cleaned off the lock's old surface to remove most of the old name, re-stamped it, but did not make the lock. There also appears to be a very slight "fish belly" in the lower butt line back toward the toe. That type patent breech was also used in Kentucky in the late 1840s and later. I would guesstimate, along with the small bore, this rifle is no earlier than the mid-1850s, and maybe later. Shelby Gallien

I agree with Tanselman. It seems like an over stamped name on the lock plate.
Let's see what the inside of the plate is looking like?
There were also any number of top quality makers that could do high end inletting
and Hamilton and Rowe's book on American Schuetzen Rifles shows this is true.
Bob Roller

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2018, 05:37:34 PM »
I really enjoy the scholarship that this forum evinces.
Phil, I was a biologist, not an historian, and greatly enjoy the details that you provide in your "mini-essays".  Really similar to the scientific approach that I used in my field.
Bob Roller and Shelby Gallien also provide fantastic information on a wide variety of subjects.  I am soaking in all this information - feel like a sponge!  I do regret that I lack the sources that all y'all show mastery of regarding American Longrifles.
Dennis, you are a lucky guy in your "choice" of relatives.
Thank each and every one of you.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline cshirsch

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2018, 10:37:20 PM »
R. B. Gillespie, Aberdeen, Indiana, 1860 directory 

Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 06:00:38 AM »
R. B. Gillespie, Aberdeen, Indiana, 1860 directory
Does this document show him as a gun maker? R. B. Gillespie Jr moved to the one-year but I will have to look up the state. I thought He was a farmer.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline cshirsch

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 03:39:13 PM »
I found his name listed in the book, American Gunsmiths by Sellers.  No other information was listed.

Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 10:23:59 PM »
Thanks but by being in the book indicates he at least made enough guns that someone considered a gun maker.
Thanks
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline bgf

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 09:56:01 PM »
Thanks but by being in the book indicates he at least made enough guns that someone considered a gun maker.
Thanks
Dennis

Dennis,
My take on this is that we don't have the same perspective.  In those days "farmer", which implied (often significant)  land ownership, was pretty high up on the social scale, whereas any "trade" was not so glamorous, as many would be itinerants or small holders.  So, he could be listed on various lists (property, voting rolls, etc.) as a farmer and still have made guns, especially as cash is one thing farmers needed but didn't always get enough of, even if they successfully supported their families by producing food and clothing....  I'm sure you've heard the description "land poor", meaning someone owns lots of property but doesn't have a lot of liquid assets.

Offline Goo

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Re: I would like some help with this rifle
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 05:43:25 AM »
The acid used by state police to reveal filed off serial numbers could reveal the original name of that lock plate
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