Incised carving lines?

[Ky-Flinter]

Following is an excerpt from a post by Jim "Bama" Parker in the Gun Building forum.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51525.0

...... I have not yet figured out exactly how they did their incised carving which looks like it was painted on. You can not even feel the cut and the incised line is black. The only thing I can think of is that when new the incised carving was not quite that smooth and that 200+ years of handling had made it feel that way. Mine will not be that smooth but I am trying to do the best that I can.

I have also seen this effect on several antique long rifles and have wondered how it came to be.  It could be from wear, as Jim speculates, but on the examples I've seen at the CLA, the finish seemed to be intact over the dark black line.  As Jim says, the lines I've seen are absolutely smooth to the touch.  If the stock is worn down enough that incise carving cannot be felt, why is there a black line remaining.  Did the maker apply ink to the incised line?

I will be interested to hear opinions of the antique experts on this.  Thanks.

-Ron

[Mark Elliott]

I think those dark lines are where the carving was deeply stamped in.   I have been told by multiple masters to restamp raised carving to outline it.  More stain is absorbed in the stamped areas. 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm no antique expert but the vines on this gun are just stamped in with a mallet and gouge. Wouldn't take anytime at all for age to completely fill in and only show a black line.

[dogcatcher]

I have no clue, just an opinion.  Knowing that the Vikings invaded Europe well before the discovery of America and that the Scandinavian art of kolrosing dates earlier than the invasion, I wonder if the "incised" carving was not a European version of the art of kolrosing.  A simple knife incision in the wood and filled with charcoal or ashes, and then finished.   

Here is a link to the basics of kolrosing.  https://pinewoodforge.com/basics-of-kolrosing/

[Darkhorse]

I have been thinking about this very thing. I want my incised lines to stand out better against the wood. So I was thinking to apply really dark or black stain with a small brush right in the incised line. Then after drying lightly sanding the stock to remove any stain outside the line so the lines are sharp. Just an idea.

[rich pierce]

Inking would make me very nervous. I’d have to wax, then carve, then ink, then de-wax.

[dogcatcher]

I have been thinking about this very thing. I want my incised lines to stand out better against the wood. So I was thinking to apply really dark or black stain with a small brush right in the incised line. Then after drying lightly sanding the stock to remove any stain outside the line so the lines are sharp. Just an idea.

Try this on a scrap, cut the lines, get some instant coffee, the finer the granules the better.  Then slightly wet the board to wet the coffee granules and raise the grain, then either sand or scrape it smooth.  Another option as described in the Kolrosing link, grind up some fine charcoal granules and rub the charcoal into the lines. 

[Darkhorse]

I am thinking that the incised line being cut, probably with a parting tool or veiner, will not raise any grain in the line itself. On the wood around the line I would probably raise and sand the grain a couple of times, then stain the line, then finish raising the grain.
But I have a few pieces of scrap maple so I'll be able to test the entire process, and different stains like coffee, so I can see how I like it before I actually do it on a gunstock.

[Eric Kettenburg]

It's just age and wear over the years, and with probably 99.9% of all antiques, multiple refinishings or added finish.  No need to overthink it.

[JTR]

I have a carved Bucks County rifle that has the exact type of carving being discussed here.
Looking at it, studying it closely, noticing the way the lines are cut, the kinks and slips on the curves, etc, i'd say it was cut with a thin bladed pen knife, or the like. Under a microscope, the black looks just like old finish I've seen in recessed areas on other guns.
Given the tools of the time, like Eric said, no need to over think it.
John

[Craig Wilcox]

I have been using some maple blocks and tool handles to practice my silver inlays.  After reading about "kolrosing", I have prepared a block to try this out.  Just now put the sealer (Permalyn) on the block, will let it dry a few hours, then give it a try, but with dry fine coffee grounds (!) and some powdered charcoal.  Will try to make a few designs, then photo the results.  Will let ya know how it comes out.

[Craig Wilcox]

Well, prepped the block with two coats of Permalyn sealer, drew a little design (crooked!), and gently stabbed it in using the tools that I have been using to open the wood for silver inlay.
Then I put some coffee grounds in an old spoon, and dried and roasted them with my small butane torch.  Ground them a bit finer using a second spoon, and also a gouge handle.  Couldn't get them quite as fine as I had wanted.
So, having incised a very fine line, took a pinch of the ground up coffee grounds, and rubbed them into the lines - worked a charm.  Dabbed a wee bit of water to get the slits to swell closed a bit, let it dry some, then lightly sanded with 600 silicon paper, and now have one coat of Permalyn finish over it.





First time trying to upload pics - seems reasonably easy.

[bama]

Here are a few pictures of what I am trying to get and what I have achieved. The original rifle is a Martin Sheetz which is a very nice rifle but as Eric has stated has been refinished at least once. I agree with Eric that much of what we are seeing is age and wear but I have a hard time with the color of the lines are being produce by age and wear.  I may be chasing an impossibility but I am no quitter and will continue to try to get a result that more resembles what I am seeing. So far my efforts have not been very satisfactory to me. What you will see is a before stain picture and an after stain picture of my attempt. I stabbed in the design fairly deep and rubbed in a natural black earth pigment. Then scraped and sanded the incised carving back to remove the pigment from the surrounding wood. I then stained with aqua fortis and applied a mixture off varnish and linseed oil that I make with with and amber tint added. The staining process nearly closed my incised carving to the point that it was almost invisible so I re cut it, rubbed more pigment into the cut and applied another coat of finish. I still did not get a defined line so I repeated the process two more times. This is where I took the pictures of my progress. I still have a couple more coats of finish to apply but this time I will rub ground up coal into the cuts to see if the lines develop better. I do believe that Martin Sheetz used a knife of some sort to cut some of his design and gouges for the rest. I think that the areas that do not get as much wear the cuts look more unrefined that the high wear areas which tends to make me think Eric is correct. But man I want to be able to replicate that look on a rifle so I will keep trying.














match com delete account

[Craig Wilcox]

I have tried and tried, using the kolrosing technique, but can only get skinny lines.  When I try for thicker lines, or where two lines touch at an angle, the powdered charcoal seems to wash out.
I am wondering about mixing the charcoal powder with a bit of Titebond glue, then trying to get that mix down into the wood.
The difficult we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer....

[bgf]

Bama,
I think the refinishing may have contributed to the current effect. 

Stain usually darkens the lines and they get filled in with finish and eventually dirt, then later refinishing decreases the depth of the line and reveals lighter wood beside it for contrast...

I notice the Sheetz original is very light in color compared to many of it's age, but with more typically dark areas that were not cleaned up (so as to not damage carving, etc.).

Anyway, you might get a similar effect on yours with a lighter stain? 

[Eric Kettenburg]

What he said.  Look at the area directly under the cheekpiece - same extremely dark appearance as the carving lines.  The only effective drier for any oil based finishes at the time was lead, and leaded oil will eventually turn black over time as the lead oxidizes and reacts with acids in the oil, not to mention exposure to environmental conditions.  Also, most linseed oil based finishes - even the harder types - are not "glass hard" like many urethanes.  They will become embedded with dirt over time.  The finish down in incised lines is essentially a dirt trap, and over years of use and multiple refinishings (wherein more oil or *any* finish is added, therefore more build-up in the lines) will yield exactly what you're seeing.

[dogcatcher]

I am still on the kolrosing theory, so here is another idea.  Send questions along with photos etc., to their contact point.  https://pinewoodforge.com/contact-us-about-us/ 

They seem pretty knowledgeable and they may or may not be able to offer suggestions, but you might be trying to invent a wheel that they already have done. 

[Osprey]

Bama, here's a gift - get yourself a wood burning tool with a fine tip.  I've got one with different tips and it makes the finest incised lines you'll ever want and should give you the exact effect you're looking for as far as dark carving (although a simple single unit from any hobby store will work).  With light stain it should look just like that original, with dark stain it typically just looks like any other carving technique.  Use it to undercut raised carving edges if you want the dark look on that too.  If you want a wide incised line tilt the burn tip while using it.  Our whole group of builders locally uses them, I think everybody here in our Chesapeake area has them from carving decoys before we got into longrifles.

I certainly can't say it was an original method, but it works and is almost too easy.  Although, with all the candles, oil lamps, wood stoves and forges I absolutely think some of the original makers had to have let a knife tip sit in a flame, get hot and use it for at least some work.

[Carl Young]

I certainly can't say it was an original method, but it works and is almost too easy.  Although, with all the candles, oil lamps, wood stoves and forges I absolutely think some of the original makers had to have let a knife tip sit in a flame, get hot and use it for at least some work.

Thanks for saying this Dave; not having any experience doing this, or documentation to substantiate it, I was reluctant to mention it but it seemed plausible to me. I didn't make the connection to bird carving until you mentioned it.
Carl

[Dan Fruth]

I have discussed this with other contemporary makers, and the current thought is that the outline was stabbed in first, the the background scrapped away and finally the whole thing gone over with a V tool to clean up the outlines and leave the little CUT line at the base of the pattern...Given age, wear, and possibly sanding, or wooling and another refinish, and the result is the element is worn down and all that remains is the dark line......I do something that seems to work....once stained, restab the carving, then before finishing, mix some leaded linseed oil and black artist pigment, and with an artist brush, apply the mix to the border, into the stabbed or cut line, then finish the piece...seems to do the trick

[bama]

Hi Dan, I would love to see pictures of the outcome your efforts. I have decided that just stabbing the design in is not going to give me the results that I am looking for. I do believe that the incised line has to be a cut, just stabbing the line in, the line almost dissappears when the stain is applied even if you have rubbed Black into the cut.

I am not happy with the results I got but I have more ideas to try thanks to all that have contributed here.

[ericxvi]

   The black lines you refer to look a lot like the remains of checkering. I have a Leman rifle that was purported to be an Indian gun. It has been shortened , breech set back, and the checkering at the wrist is completely worn away in places showing those black lines. I've also seen them on shotguns only 100 years old .
   My point is checkering is done with a V cutter and dirt and time does the rest.

Eric

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Dan, I would love to see pictures of the outcome your efforts. I have decided that just stabbing the design in is not going to give me the results that I am looking for. I do believe that the incised line has to be a cut, just stabbing the line in, the line almost dissappears when the stain is applied even if you have rubbed Black into the cut.

I am not happy with the results I got but I have more ideas to try thanks to all that have contributed here.

Again, the gun I pictured above has the lines with the berries on it just stabbed in with a gouge, nothing else. If the surrounding wood were sanded off the stabbed in lines would remain dark just like the old Sheetz gun you pictured. You might try some of Kibler's tannic acid followed by ferric nitrate which will turn your stock very back. Rub this out with some oil and a scotch bright pad to the color you want. the lighter you rub out the stain the darker your stabbed in  lines will be. And that's all I got to say about that.....

[bama]

Hi Mike, I am not debating your methods, you do great work. I am stating what I have done trying to replicate what I am seeing. So far my methods have not been successful in getting the results I am looking for and unfortunately I don't have 200 years to get those results. What you have shown does not replicate the look although in 200 years it might. If you have a method that gives the look on the Martin Sheetz rifle please show it, I would love to see it. And that is all I have to say about that.

[Mike Brooks]

"If you have a method that gives the look on the Martin Sheetz rifle please show it, I would love to see it"

You might try some of Kibler's tannic acid followed by ferric nitrate which will turn your stock very back. Rub this out with some oil and a scotch bright pad to the color you want. the lighter you rub out the stain the darker your stabbed in  lines will be.

You'll have to rub back the stain to a very light color to  reproduce 'The Sheets effect". The color you have the stock  now is way to dark to produce the effect you're after, needs to be much lighter.