Author Topic: shooting high off hand how come?  (Read 713 times)

Offline recurve

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shooting high off hand how come?
« on: November 08, 2018, 09:13:59 PM »
Flintlock  siler small lock, 36 inch 50cal gmt barrel  Shooting off the bench I shoot right on at 25-50 yds but when I try off hand(same range) over a foot higher? I've been shooting the same way I hold my Remington 7600 ( and m16 Army MP expert badge) right hand grip tight to shoulder, left open hand-controlled breathing slow trigger squeeze(surprise firing). 

 the red/black  square is 2x2 inches

 is there slower recoil or a different fallow through needed?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 09:36:32 PM by recurve »

Online Huntschool

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 10:20:37 PM »
If you are shooting high and using the grip and mount you described try closing your front hand around the forestock and just place the butt against your shoulder making good contact, i.e. don't try and "strangle" your gun.  Do continue your hold follow through......

The other possibility is, from the bench you are getting one sight reading, while off hand you may be getting something different.....  Gun fit.....

The hold you described is perfect for a heavy stopping rifle .458 and beyond (almost all the grip should be in the back hand, loose grip in front to allow the gun to recoil up after the shot)  but not so much on one of these guns.....

Just my thoughts, try it and see what happens
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 08:19:49 AM by Huntschool »
Bruce A. Hering
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Southeastern Illinois College
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 05:31:02 AM »
I always try to sit very upright at the bench, simulating standing.  I have to use blocks to get a front rest high enough. 

I also hold the gun firmly, with the back of my left hand on the front rest, and the rifle laying in my hand.  No part of the gun touches the bench or rest.  My ribcage touches the bench, as does my right elbow.  Very stable. 

I get the same POI from this method as standing.  The firm grip allows for follow-through on a long barrel and slow BP velocities.  I have found I cannot use the same technique for high-powered-modern and BP. 

I hope this helps.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 06:10:05 AM »
Off a bench or a rest is different than off hand, because of 1 ] possible sight picture changes due to stock design, and 2 ]  the longer lock time and barrel time and barrel charge ignition of these rifles. The long barrels contribute a longer barrel time etc etc which means that on the whole, you are well into recoil before the ball leaves the barrel....so the shot goes higher.  I learned to make a concentrated effort to hold, fire, hold ...and I don't have a problem any longer re shooting high. Of course, this is my conjecture, and could be nothing more than horse apples  :)  ...or not  8)

Offline Semisane

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 05:51:52 PM »
When on the bench, is the forearm rest in the same place on the stock where your hand would be for offhand shooting? If not, the different weight distribution will cause different shot elevations.
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline mushka

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 05:53:40 PM »
As Bob said, barrel time is part of the culprit.  I've found when benching a rifle I'm holding the piece down to the rest.  Not much barrel raise.  When I shoot standing  a firm grip helps the barrel to stay down some but the rifle will shoot a little higher than when benched.  When zeroing I attempt to get the windage correct, then work on elevation.   I zero the elevation while shooting standing.  If I get it to hit where I want while standing and bench it, it generally hits a couple of inches lower off the bench.  Zero it the way you are going to use the rifle.  Hunt, probably standing, just plinking try and find a happy medium.  Good luck.

Online Huntschool

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 07:48:43 PM »
Well, it would seem we have all come up with reasonable suggestions.....  Now lets hear from the OP....  don't ya all think.....
Bruce A. Hering
Program Coordinator/Lead Instructor (retired)
Shotgun Team Coach
Southeastern Illinois College
AMM 761

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 08:27:38 PM »
I always try to sit very upright at the bench, simulating standing.  I have to use blocks to get a front rest high enough. I get the same POI from this method as standing.
Same method here! Or if I donít have anything to get the rifle Ďupí, so my chest is up and Iím not shooting all Ďhunched overí, then Iíll shoot from the sitting position, resting my supporting elbow on the inside of a knee. You need to be aware of the triangle formed between your cheek & eye, the butt against your shoulder and the support out on the forend.

You also donít say where you were supporting the forend on the rest whilst benched, but in the wrong place, it can definitely affect the barrel harmonics, and widly throw your shots.
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into a ragged ~1/2" hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd or other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Marcruger

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2018, 09:44:13 PM »
"I've found when benching a rifle I'm holding the piece down to the rest.  Not much barrel raise.  When I shoot standing  a firm grip helps the barrel to stay down some but the rifle will shoot a little higher than when benched. "

Mushka, that is why I don't hold the rifle down to the rest.  I lay the back of my hand on the rest, and grip the rifle like I do offhand.  That way, in recoil, it can rise like when shot offhand.  My POI is the same from the bench or offhand. 

I have found BPCR rifles to behave the same.  Slow projectile, long dwell time in the barrel.  You have to follow through and not have a long barrel out there whipping around while the ball is still in the barrel. 

 Just my modest experience.  Others with vast knowledge (like Daryl) can tell you better.  I just use what works for me after experimenting.  And, I hate to reinvent the wheel and waste time, so I share with others. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline Daryl

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2018, 10:09:17 PM »

I also hold the gun firmly, with the back of my left hand on the front rest, and the rifle laying in my hand.  No part of the gun touches the bench or rest.  My ribcage touches the bench, as does my right elbow.  Very stable. 

I get the same POI from this method as standing.

I hope this helps.  God Bless,   Marc

I try to keep my chest off the bench edge to eliminate possibles heart beat disturbing the sights. Other than that, I hold the gun as marc does- forend in the left hand - I hold it, but not tightly. I also get the same poi as when standing.
Daryl

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Offline Scota4570

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 10:50:37 PM »
I have not noticed a POI shift.  I must be lucky.

When I shoot of the bench I use sand bags front and rear, and often an elevating muzzle rest.  .  I put he front bag as far forward as practical.  I scoot the stock forward and aft for elevation.  I thump the bags for side to side for windage.  When I fire I only hold on enough to keep the rifle from getting away from me.  I do not steer the rifle in any way. My preference is to eliminate as much human interaction as possible. If you are hanging on too tight with these long thin barrel you can easily bow them enough to change the point of impact. 

It is possible to locate the front bag at an oscillation node that behaves different than where you place your left hand when shooting standing.  I have no clue as to how you could be so high off hand, other than a flinch or follow through problem.  I chased that issue with modern bows.  MY poa changed form day to day.  I finally figured out that it was my technique changing form day to day, no the bow.  It is analogous because both flint locks an bows are extremely follow though intensive. 

Good luck

Offline Daryl

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2018, 08:03:59 AM »
I have not noticed a POI shift.  I must be lucky.
Good luck

MNpo Scota - you are not lucky - you are using good bench and offhand shooting techniques.

That is all part of learning.

If there is a modern bench -rest match near you - go to it, not to watch them shoot tiny groups, but to lean bench techniques.

There is more to it, than sitting down and shooting over a rest.

Seat height to the bench. What sort of rest are you using.

Angle to the target, foot position, head position, elbows and how you hold your shoulders - and breathe - how, when, when to hold,

 how long to hold the sight picture before letting the shot go - when to sit up and take a few deep breaths instead of firing.

Bench Rest techniques. There are probably a number of books & articles on that as well as offhand shooting.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 01:54:27 PM »
A lot of good advice here.

I almost hate to say this, but shooting black powder is a lot different than shooting that other stuff.  You are obviously a qualified rifleman.

Are you remembering to work on one thing at a time when sighting in rather than trying to do everything at once?

When at the bench, are you trying to align sights without resting your body...e.g. sitting upright, maybe resting your elbows or some such?

Have you tried a post or using the studs holding up the roof ( if there are any) so you rest the gun at BOTH the bench and your offhand position?

How's your follow through offhand?

What happens if you aim low in the offhand?

Good luck.


Offline alacran

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 03:31:35 PM »
I seldom sight in a rifle on a bench. Most benches found at a shooting range are inadequate for a long rifle.
So I sight in using crossticks. I shot buffalo matches and shot some pretty good scores at 100 yards using crossticks.
Shooting position and proper form are critical to consistent groups. That being said, I have found over the years that light weight barrels, specially swamped barrels tend to shoot higher off crossticks than they do offhand. Sometimes the offhand drop is significant, as much as three inches. The heavier barrels do not change point of impact much.
So I use the crossticks for load development and windage correction. If it is a rifle intended for mostly offhand shooting, I do not do any elevation corrections off the sticks. I do that offhand.

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2018, 02:09:46 PM »
Maybe sell the gun?

There's something a little spooky about how well we integrate with a gun on the touchy-feely side, and you sound like you may be over thinking and thus over reacting to the difference you cited.

For example, if you cheek lower or higher on the gun standing than you do on the bench, then you could be changing your sight picture without feeling it a lot. Especially if you did all that work to get the right load.

If you're gonna shoot offhand or with some kind of brace or sticks or whatever, then abandon the bench altogether.  That way you will learn to love you rifle, it will learn to love you, and you won't have to sell the gun.

Offline recurve

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2018, 07:13:37 PM »
not selling the gun just need more shooting time ,this is the first rifle I had that the point of aim from bench to standing changed  :o learning curve


Offline Daryl

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2018, 11:45:37 PM »
Sight the gun the way you will normally shoot it. If that is off the bench, sight it off the bench and learn where/how to hold it for other positions.

The reverse is exactly opposite.  Appears to me, you are holding more front sight when shooting offhand.

Whether long rifle or short heavy gun, I hold the forend in my left hand, back of that hand on the bags. That is how I sight it in. It shoots virtually the same

spot when shooting offhand.  If it did not, I would have to re-sight as most of my shooting is offhand.

In looking closer at your rifle, it appears to have an adjustable height, rear sight.  Well, if it shoots higher offhand, adjust that sight  lower if shooting offhand.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:49:22 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline recurve

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 04:42:56 AM »


I replaced the adjustable sight with a Lowell Haarer peep/ghost ring sight, but  I had the same issue before changing( bench sight in and off hand much higher). I  have had inlines and a traditions Tennesse (flint lock)  all loads worked up on the bench and sighted in, no change off hand.  But those stocks are streighter.
Groups are great just need more time on the range to work it out (that's why I asked for suggestions to try )

Offline alacran

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 06:36:03 PM »
What is the length of pull on this particular rifle? Compare it to the Traditions. This particular rifle may not fit you. When shooting off the bench it is easier to adjust to a stock that doesn't fit. Also that particular Buttplate is intended to be shot off the upper arm, not the shoulder.

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2018, 12:12:51 AM »
Whether long rifle or short heavy gun, I hold the forend in my left hand, back of that hand on the bags. That is how I sight it in. It shoots virtually the same.
Same here, back of forward hand on the front rest ... same POI.
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into a ragged ~1/2" hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd or other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Scota4570

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 08:42:50 PM »
It is a worth while experiment to compare results using various bench techniques and see for one's self if it actually makes a difference.  For me benchresting makes it possible to test rifles and loads in a meaningful way. 

I suppose that holding the rifle with your hand on the front bag may make a POI difference.  I have not found that to be so.  I only get larger groups.  Try it and compare for yourself.  If I suspected it was making a difference I would use a folded towel, not my hand.  Hands have a pulse and can flinch. 

I would bet that the unrested shooting technique is at fault if a POI change is consistent.  At least it has been for me.   I am not say I am right or anyone else is wrong, I am relating my experience.

When shooting off the bench I am testing the rifle and load, not my skill. I install a temporary peep sight.  First, I never place any part of the rifle on a hard surface.  The forend goes on a sand bag or padded rest.   The butstock goes on bags between the butplate and trigger guard.  Scooting the whole rifle forward and back adjusts elevation.  Pinching and thumping the rear bags does windage.  Shooting is done with the absolute minimal human interaction.  No muscles are used to aim the rifle.  Do not hang on tight or put any pressure on the rifle.  I am making a sort of machine rest.   

Per other threads "accuracy" covers a lot of ground depending on who you talk to.  For some folks off hand my be fine for testing loads.  I have more obsessive standards.  Using the bench technique I describes I have shoot 5-shot groups in the "teens" with a modern varmint rifle at 100 yards.  Others who advocate a different technique are also correct, it is a preference and expectations thing. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 02:56:34 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline Daryl

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Re: shooting high off hand how come?
« Reply #21 on: Today at 12:21:37 AM »
I can easily understand vertical dispersion when shooting offhand if you come up on the target as you squeeze the trigger.

Differing ignitions times will add elevation. Off the bags, there is no coming up on it, or onto the bull from the side as the gun should be stationary

whether it is held in the hand, hand on bag, or not.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V