Author Topic: Silver Solder  (Read 896 times)

Offline Nhgrants

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Silver Solder
« on: November 10, 2018, 03:41:33 PM »
Is silver solder that is used for plumbing considered hard solder?
In the Recreating the American  Longrifle book he refers to hard solder
And soft solder which I took to be silver versus lead. I wanted to avoid
The brazing rod that is part silver and requires using an oxy acetylene
Torch.  Thanks

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2018, 03:58:15 PM »
No. But modern plumbing solder is 95/5. Tin/lead. Older plumbing solder was 50/50. Silver bearing solder is low temperature soft solder as well. High temp silver braze is hard. I think what you're asking is why one over the other? For instance, If you bend a sight and solder with soft, low temp solder, then try to solder it to your barrel, both solders will melt at the same temp. A higher temp solder/braze won't melt away while soft, low temp soldering. 

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2018, 04:09:00 PM »
And, to confuse you more, silver solder itself comes in easy, medium, and hard.  They are all three "hard", but the adjectives refer to the melting point.  Then come the "silver bearing solder", which melts at an even lower temp.
As Nordnecker said, when you have several soldering jobs to do, you start with a high-temp one.  Then the next soldering job would use a lower temp one. 

Lots of choices.  Fortunately, soldering is easy to learn.  And always remember that solder flows TOWARDS the heat.  Get the bigger piece (i.e., barrel) hot, then the part that is getting soldered on.  Don't use the torch to melt the solder - heat the two joining parts, then apply a LITTLE solder to them.  And solder is not a gap filler, pieces to be joined have to fit very well.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline Nhgrants

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2018, 05:17:43 PM »
Thanks.  I am making a new ramrod drill.  I turned down and threaded the butt end of a drill bit and drilled a tapped inside the inside of a steel rod. When put together and tightened up it is quite true and straight in a lathe.
I want to silver solder that joint with low temp silver. I think if I heat it up too much I'll end up with run out.
The solder I have is marked silver and not 95/5 so this must be bearing silver, does that sound right?
Anyone see any flaws in the plan?  I realize a gun drill would be better.










Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2018, 05:20:25 PM »
You don't want to use soft solder for that. High temp brazing with silver or brass would be your best bet.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2018, 05:56:25 PM »
I made a similiar drill about 20 years ago. No solder or anything and it has never been a problem. Granted I have only used it three or four times.
Dennis
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Offline flehto

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2018, 06:15:49 PM »
I did the same thing you did, except I didn't thread and screw the 2 pcs together. Just a slight press fit. Then I chamfered the corner of the shoulder of  the drill bit and also the end of the rod and used hi temp silver solder in the groove formed by the chamfers. This was then filed smooth. The silver solder melts at 1350 degrees and a Mapp Gas torch melts it.

Forgot to mention that borax flux is used......Fred
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 04:18:51 PM by flehto »

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 06:41:20 PM »
56% Silver is fabrication grade solder.  Can be worked with propane, but I always used O/A.  Also, use flux- and wash away the flux residue (water soak).  The flux is separate, buy some or use Borax (is the base for the fancy commercial fluxes).

Also, snug-to-slip joint is needed.  56% shouldn't fill gaps (sloppy fit) but only glue nice tolerances-somewhat looser than press fit.   

Practice some, it's not difficult and can be used to join SS--which is handy for various household/tooling repairs away from the purists' bench.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2018, 08:54:04 PM »
 Just use loctite 360. Yuo don't need to solder it.   A lot of modern gunmakers use it to install sight ramps on barrels. Brownell has it. But sleeve locker is good also, You can get it a NAPA parts store.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 09:35:52 PM »
Confusing subject, maybe it needs a sticky. 

Low temp (up to 500*-ish)
These are "soft" solders.

Low temp eutectic solders
lead tin solder, go to basic solder, for under ribs and such.
silver bearing tin solders,  used in plumbing,  just because silver is in the name, it does not make it "silver solder".


About 800*
Spelter solder, Bronze color, this can be useful on small brass parts that you want to join but not melt the part

Higher temp (over 1000*) Some small jobs can be done with a MAPP gas torch.

-silver braze, refrigeration brazing rod. It does not flow for beans. Pretty worthless to me, no advantage over regular brazing rod.  Expensive 
-braze, regular traditional brazing rod
-Silver solder as used by jewelers.  It comes in different viscosity's.  Some will flow into a joint like water.  Very strong, very useful.

Hotter still and we are welding. 

Offline davec2

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2018, 07:46:26 AM »
Some good information on soldering but I agree with Jerry. Use Locktite. When the drill needs sharpening it can easily be removed with a little heat, re-sharpened, and then re-attached to the long shank.
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2018, 10:25:05 AM »
No matter how much I love Loctite 648, I am still using silver solder for this job of making a drill bit.  We all know that the drill gets reasonably warm when drilling the hole, and if it overheats the Loctite, you have a bit stuck in the hole.  Loctite (Henkel) makes some great adhesives, but this is one job that is best left to welding or soldering.  I use 648 in situations where there is high torque, but not high torque and high temps.  If you chose to go this route, I am not sure how you lubricate enough to keep the temp low enough to not compromise the bond.

Silver brazing, or soldering, is not that difficult.  It just takes a little practice.  I use a mix of 45% silver, and the joint is incredibly strong if you have no gaps when you begin.  You need your parts to meet flush, but about a 10 thousands is necessary for proper solder flow.  Like doing a bimetallic patch box, or inlay, it is the same principle.  My method for this is to cut a small piece of solder that should do the job, and lay it on a bed of flux, where I want the solder to flow.  Then I heat the parts, not the solder.  When things get to temp, they will flow if you do this correctly.  After that, I keep the part at that temp for a few minutes, just to let the solder flow as much as it can.  Use plenty of flux.  Good luck.

M. E. Pering
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 10:29:52 AM by M. E. Pering »

Offline LRB

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2018, 03:58:38 PM »
  Silvaloy 355 is the best I've used. It needs only a very few thousandths, much less than a .010 gap to flow. Not cheap, but very good, and very strong. flows at about 1200°, and a common propane torch will do small work very well. Brownell's sells it in sheet and 1/32" wire. I often use a Mapp gas torch head, but with regular propane. Mapp gas is rarely needed.



Offline LRB

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2018, 07:45:53 PM »
  Here is a silver sword scabbard drag tip, made by a two piece/halves method. It is silver brazed with the Silvaloy 355. the two halves were mated as close as I could get them. Could not see light through the seam before brazing. Even I can't find the seam unless it tarnishes.





Offline davec2

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2018, 03:57:15 AM »
Mr. Pering,

I would agree with you, but in this case the drill shank and rod are engaged by threads and so, to lose the drill, you would have to either strip the metal threads or get the drill very hot and run it backwards.  Because the rod and drill are threaded together, I would still recommend the Locktite.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2018, 04:18:38 AM »
Davec2,

Ooops… Now that I re-read that post, I notice I missed that important detail.  In that case, then yes... Loctite should work quite well.  In the past, I have used Loctite 648 with great success on shafts under torsional, and as you pointed out, they can be disassemble for easier sharpening.  My apologies for my confusion, everyone.

M. E, Pering  <~~ Slinks back into his dungeon.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 04:20:36 AM by M. E. Pering »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2018, 08:06:26 AM »
 Besides.some  Loctite needs to get  up to about 500° F to relieve. You will not get a drill that hot.  sleeve locker is used on Sleeves in diesel engines and for installing barrel sleeves in modern guns. Go figure. 
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Silver Solder
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 11:54:28 PM »
I have made several drills over the years by silver soldering (with silvaloy 355) a brad point drill bit to a long piece of drill rod with a simple butt joint. Make sure both ends are trued perfectly, and are perfectly clean. I have never had one fail. When one went dull, I tried to break it off with a hammer, the rod bent but the drill bit did not break off. I used to silver solder parts on my vintage racing motorcycles, never had a failure there either. Properly done, high temp silver soldering is plenty strong for anything having to do with gun building. Band saw blades are repaired with silver solder and they don't have much surface contact and work fine after repair.
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