Author Topic: Having issues with my new vent liner. Update. Problem solved!  (Read 2598 times)

m1garand_man

  • Guest
Having issues with my new vent liner. Update. Problem solved!
« on: December 03, 2018, 06:58:58 AM »
I bought a new vent liner for my rifle and installed it the other day. Its not a white lightnin but a track of the wolf one that is very similar. The vent hole on my old bronze or brass one had become so enlarged that I was loosing enough of the 1.5f powder charge I use to cause misfires.

The new one works awesome when it does work. I shot 16 rounds through it before it got too dark to see on Saturday. The first shot had a ridiculously fast lock time (I couldn't sense a delay between the priming and the main charge going off) and so did a few other shots but then I kept getting longer delays more often than not where the lock time was more like what I am used to. Most concerning I had two occasions where all I had was a flash in the pan. I drilled the flash hole out to .0625" but noticed no appreciable increase in reliability. I was shot a few round with my normal priming of 4f and no concern for powder position, then I tried banking the powder away from and against the vent as well as repeating the same tests with 1.5f since I sometimes use that as priming on very humid days. I noticed no appreciable difference in reliability. One observation I made was that the new liner has a rather long / deep vent hole which keeps the main charge a ways away from the priming in my opinion. I can barely make out the powder grains way back in there. This was the case for every shot.

When I got home I chamfered the outside and inside of the vent hole to get the main charge powder closer to the pan but I haven't tested it again since. The next size drill bit I have is 5/64" .078125" but I'm not sure if I want to make that big of a jump since I'm really intrigued by the potential for super fast lock time and think that has a lot to do with having a smaller vent hole.

What recommendations do you guys have? Would you recommend to drill larger or chamfer deeper if I keep having issues?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 01:57:17 PM by m1garand_man »

Offline M. E. Pering

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 07:11:41 AM »
From you description, it sounds like your main issue may be fouling inside the vent liner.  I often use a plain round wooden toothpick to clean out the vent after every couple of shots.  I am assuming your liner also has a screw slot cut in it.  Make sure to clean this as well.  Before I enlarge the hole anymore, I would try and get back to that first shot perfect ignition you had.  It did it a few times at first, so it should be repeatable.  Always fun to learn from seemingly insignificant changes.

Matt

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5314
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2018, 08:15:14 AM »
Not only do I drill the vent hole out to 1/16" but also cone the inside of the liner until the web separating the prime is maybe as thin as 1/32" and certainly no more that 1/16".  Picking the vent hole can help as well.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3021
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2018, 09:00:29 AM »
Hard to believe the vent performed perfectly at first then not so good - without the cause being other than fouling.  In my limited experience the same thing happened until between shots I  wiped pan, frizzen face and the side of the barrel; then load with the final step picking the vent before priming.   

Offline FlintFan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2018, 12:35:30 PM »
If it worked well from the start and then started to decline, it would seem fouling is the issue.  Did you remove the breech plug and make sure the liner is filed internally to match the contour of the bore, or is there part of the liner sticking into the barrel? 

Is this liner a larger diameter than your old one, causing part of it's diameter to be behind the face of the breechplug? 

I would clean the gun exceptionally well, including the breech/liner area.  Then try a shooting session with a feather or toothpick inserted in the touch hole while loading. 

I've used both Chambers and Track's liners over the years, and personally prefer Track's version.  They have a larger internal cavity, and I have never had a problem with them.

Offline Don Steele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 668
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2018, 12:51:02 PM »
IMHO: you don't have a vent liner problem now, and most likely as far as "Misfires" go... didn't have one with the liner you replaced.
I believe you are having fouling issues on the breech face, or in the firing channel if you have a patent breech.
Get everything in there clean to the bare metal, then re-evaluate the components you're using and your loading procedure. When I had similar symptoms I cured them by not pushing $#@* (re: fouling) onto the breech face.
That's just my opinion of course....  ;)
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • Dane Lund
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 06:27:21 PM »
Two  things to consider...... is your touch hole in front of your breech plug?  in other words, no patent breech, or groove in the  breech plug?

Second, how deep did you countersink that plug?  The depth that you countersink , will determine the wall thickness of your liner.  Both will effect speed of Ignition.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18935
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2018, 06:38:28 PM »
Try picking after loading. Run a vent pick in the touch hole till you feel crunchy powder.
Andover, Vermont

Davemuzz

  • Guest
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 08:32:59 PM »
Picking the vent hole is a good idea. I do this, but I have a "picking tool" made from stainless steel. Doing the pick with a toothpick (for me) would make me nervous that I would break off the little piece of wood in the hole.....and then down the rabbit hole I go!!!   :o

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 09:24:37 PM »
 I took all my vent holes out to .078"
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Dave R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 10:01:06 PM »
Jerry,

What calibers did you open the touchhole to .078" ?

m1garand_man

  • Guest
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 10:35:01 PM »
Two  things to consider...... is your touch hole in front of your breech plug?  in other words, no patent breech, or groove in the  breech plug?

Second, how deep did you countersink that plug?  The depth that you countersink , will determine the wall thickness of your liner.  Both will effect speed of Ignition.

I do have a patent breech. Also the countersink is something I did after shooting it but I haven't retested it since. At the time of initial testing there was no counter sink at all.

What would you all say is the optimal liner wall thickness for a 1/16" dia vent for reliable and fast lock time?

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • Dane Lund
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 11:16:53 PM »
You have to counter sink the hole that the liner goes into.  If you make it too deep, you'll have a very thick wall.
I'd say your patent breech is the problem.  Are you running cleaning patches between shots?  Probably shoving fowling into the patent breech.
A white lightning liner is almost self cleaning, due to the Venturi effect.
I can shoot all day, without ever using a vent pick, or running a cleaning patch.
Many variables here.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15079
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 01:17:27 AM »
You have to counter sink the hole that the liner goes into.  If you make it too deep, you'll have a very thick wall.
I'd say your patent breech is the problem.  Are you running cleaning patches between shots?  Probably shoving fowling into the patent breech.
A white lightning liner is almost self cleaning, due to the Venturi effect.
I can shoot all day, without ever using a vent pick, or running a cleaning patch.
Many variables here.

Same here.
There are a LOT of variables involved with dimensions, loading, powder, etc. If you cannot load and look down at the vent and see a grain of powder in or at the hole, the channel is too long, imho.  Chamfering on the outside to correct this fault, may help a big, but is not the best method. The best method would be to buy a real Whitelightning liner and do it again, or another WL from Track and inside chamfering it to allow the powder immediate access to the flame in the pan.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline FlintFan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2018, 01:47:25 AM »
I think Smallpatch might have hit it on the head to the countersink issue.  He is referring to the countersink that is done to the barrel after threading for the new liner.  You only have to barely break the edge of the threaded hole with the countersink before installing the liner and filing it flush.  I could see where if that countersink was excessively deep, it would effect the length of the finished touch hole length. 






m1garand_man

  • Guest
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2018, 02:56:11 AM »
I somehow had a brain @$#% and confused "countersink" with "chamfer"

The original hole was and still is counter sunk.

My last post should have read like this

I do have a patent breech. Also the chamfer is something I did after shooting it but I haven't retested it since. At the time of initial testing there was no chamfer at all.

What would you all say is the optimal liner wall thickness for a 1/16" dia vent for reliable and fast lock time?

With that being said no I cannot really see the powder granules one or any very easily at the bottom of the vent hole.

Also the swabbing between shots and patent breech comment made me realize what was going on with my rifle this summer when I would swab and then for all my might I couldn't figure out why it seemed like when I loaded sometimes that the powder wouldn't make it to the vent. I only have to swab often when I shoot in hot humid weather. In cooler weather there is much less fouling to deal with.

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • Dane Lund
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2018, 08:11:37 AM »
All my liners are flat on the outside, no campher. Ignition is very fast.  You want to get the main charge as close to the flash as possible. BUT, I don't think the thickness of that wall is your problem.
I still think it has to do with that patent breech and fowling.
Just me.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1658
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2018, 09:26:47 AM »
You may not be getting powder to the liner as some patent breech's are notorious for bridging the powder. This means the powder gets jammed together at the top of the patent breech and just stops right there. I had a GPR many years ago that did that regularly, what I did when loading was to tip the barrel at an angle, then slowly dump the powder into the barrel, so there is not enough volume to bridge and it slides into the breech at angle. Straighten the rifle and bump the stock to settle the powder and finish loading. It was very frustrating at first and for awhile I checked the touchhole with a pick to be sure I had powder at the breech before finishing the loading process.
If your getting powder to the vent then other things come into play, the patent breech diameter is much smaller than the barrel and fouling builds up quickly and can cause a "Klinker" to block the powder from the vent. If you check your vent with a pick you can feel when the powder is blocked because you don't feel any grains. Work a hole in the Klinker until you feel powder grains then prime and shoot.
After the shot I would cover the TH with a folded paper towel and close the frizzen, turn the rifle vent up and pour some water down the barrel and shake it around some. Then take a wet patch and swab the barrel until most of the fouling is blown out the TH and onto the paper towel. Run a few dry patches down the barrel and go back to shooting.
The liner that came with the rifle caused a lot of hangfires due to the flash channel being to long so I made up a few of these where I could vary the flash channel. I think ampco makes liners just like this now. The reason I chamfered the outside was to allow better access of the fire to the flash channel due to the screwdriver slot.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15079
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2018, 10:36:10 AM »
All my liners are flat on the outside, no campher. Ignition is very fast.  You want to get the main charge as close to the flash as possible. BUT, I don't think the thickness of that wall is your problem.
I still think it has to do with that patent breech and fowling.
Just me.

That is how it sounds to me as well - cleaning, SWABBING - pushes $#@* down there, makes it a wet sludge that stops the powder from reaching the flash channel.  Too long a flash channel
just exacerbates the problem - especially when the inner cone is fouled as well.

The kicker here, was first shot with the new vent liner was fast - then - wiping, loading and shooting, it got slower and slower - thus, the wiping - however, I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would continue to load and shoot like that, when they do not have to. There is no good reason, aside from maybe long periods of time 10 - minutes or more, between shooting and loading the next one - as in a chunk or plank match, for all that wiping.

It really doesn't matter to us, what the humidity is - even 100% - we've shot in that, & 90% or all the way down to 6% - we do not have to wipe - ever.  I have had to wipe the water out of the pan though when it is really muggy/humid, but I/we've never wipe the frizzen nor the flint - ever. I've never seen anyone in our group do this.  I cannot see a need for that & no benefit to doing it.

If you want to, same as wiping between shots, every 3 or 15 or 30 for that matter, have at it.  Loaded as we ALL do up here and many guys on this forum, there is no need to wipe. Our guns shoot the entire course of fire, be it 20 to 30 shots on a short day, or 60 shots on a longer one. We've even gone 100 shots in a longer day's shooting of load testing - no one wipes the bores - ever - don't have to.  There is never any powder fouling buildup in the bore.  Yes, it will build up in the breech, but I've never had a problem with ignition for an entire long day's shooting where I know I've fired off more than 100 rounds. That has happened with my .32, .40, .45, .58's and .69- none of them ever became 'fouled'. 

We'd rather be shooting, loading and shooting, some talking, etc. Not wiping and holding up the firing line.  Maybe that's how we can shoot off 30 to 50 shots in just around 3 hours. We're usually at the restaurant having lunch by 2:20 - sometimes 1:30 on shooting Sundays. We usually start at 10:00, sometimes start shooting earlier, like 9-9:30 or so. That will make for a 50 or 60 shot day. There is a reason my horns hold more than a pound of powder. My big 2F horn holds 1 1/2 pounds as I use it with my .69. Oft times I run out.
That's this horn.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2120
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2018, 01:23:08 PM »
I have a patent breech on my .54 Bucks County rifle. It also has a white lightning vent liner.  I have never had any fowling issues with it.
Tight patch bear grease no wiping between shots.  If it is really dry as it gets here in AZ, I just put spit on my greased patch after gun has been idle between relays.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

m1garand_man

  • Guest
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2018, 09:15:21 PM »
Well for the record I haven't had any issues with the patent breech fouling up since this summer which was the last time I had to swab between shots.

As far as the inconsistent ignition with the new vent liner it's truly inconsistent. One shot may be fast then the next few normal then maybe a fast one followed by a flash in the pan and a few more normal ignitions.

I'll try dumping the powder in the barrel at an angle. I can see that 1.5f may be a bit big for a 50 cal but its what I have determined shoots well in this gun. I may play around with 2f this weekend and see what happens. I just don't have ant 2f Swiss like all of my 1.5f is so accuracy won't be as good unless I weigh all of my charges.

I also don't think I'll chamfer the inside of the liner anymore until I shoot it first since I already thinned it out a but by doing that to get the powder charge closer to the pan. It's not as close as I think it needs to be yet but I don't want to hose this liner since I'm hunting with the rifle on Sunday.

My old liner was 100% reliable. I don't recall ever having a flash in the pan over the last 1000 rounds (counting bullet boxes) but it did ignight slower than the new one does when the new one is fast. The origional had at least a .07825 hole in it. And you could always see a grain or two pooching  out of the vent in fact I'd usually have three to five grains fall out into the pan if loading with the frizzen closed to inspect for that sort of thing. But I don't want to enlarge the new one more than I have to.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15079
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2018, 11:58:21 PM »
I would leave it at 1/16". You might have to slap the side of your barrel after dumping in the powder - just a thought.
If the small hole in the end of the breech is sub-calibre, it's possible it is difficult for the powder charge to get down there.
I'd thought Swiss 1 1/2F was about the same size as 2F GOEX?  Taylor had to use 1F in his .40 flinter at rendezvous, one day.
He didn't have any ignition problems, however the sights weren't even close. He had to double the powder charge to get even
remotely close. Of course, none of us on the line loaned him 3F - LOL. It is nice to beat him, now and then.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

m1garand_man

  • Guest
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2018, 05:27:40 PM »
I'd have to look at the notes I was given on powder grain sizes. I was under the impression that swiss ran larger. I also haven't noticed the supposed high energetics that swiss has compared to others like goex. But that's just me and my testing. My patent breech didn't cause any issues with my old vent liner. I'll know more this weekend when I experiment.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15079
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2018, 08:18:45 PM »
Had some powder for a visual test.

These all came from factory marked cans.

No - I did not get ANY of them mixed up. The GOEX CANNON and GOEX 1F are as they came from the cans.

Note, the 1 1/2F Swiss is just BARELY larger gained than the GOEX 2 F.

I looked for and could not find my remaining 1/4 pound of METEOR 1F.

It was easily 5 times larger than the 1F GOEX. I guess I disposed of it finally.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

J.E. Moore

  • Guest
Re: Having issues with my new vent liner
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 09:52:54 PM »
Are the threaded portion of both liners, old and new, the same length? Could it be possible that the new liner has more exposed inside the bore and might be preventing your powder from time to time falling back to the touch hole?