Author Topic: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.  (Read 1418 times)

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2018, 07:16:57 AM »
I tried rounding the edge as per Daryl's method.  Man!  I just don't get it. I've never been able to "thumb start" a patched ball.  I'm not exactly a weak guy, but it doesn't seem like I'm even close to thumb starting.  Is there more to than just taking a few grades of emory cloth on your finger and going round and round the muzzle?

Offline redheart

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2018, 09:02:37 AM »
Jack,
It looks like if you want to thumb start you are either going to need to cone your muzzle or use a looser patch and ball combination. :o

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2018, 09:27:23 AM »
I highly doubt that anybody started a ball with their thumb in the 18th century.  What probably happened was a loading block was used with the ramrod, or, more likely, the butt of a knife was used to shove it into the groves of the rifling.  Just saying, that we have little evidence for coning in the 18th century, and it is likely a 19th century solution. 

I haven't used a ball starter in 25 years.  There is no historical evidence for them.  There is no historical evidence for coned barrels either until the 19th century.  That being said, we also have no evidence that some were not coned.  You cannot prove a negative.  Consider the blunderbuss, which was one of the first guns to see American shores.  It was most definitely a not coned, but an extreme funnel.

Matt

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2018, 03:36:48 PM »
So there's evidence of loading blocks in the 18th century?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2018, 04:22:41 PM »
So there's evidence of loading blocks in the 18th century?

There’s the one Kels Swan collected that some consider controversial.  I’m not sure how a loading block helps a ball load easier anyway.

Some of this is wording.  “Coned”, “relieved” etc.  On the previous page there are photos of muzzle treatments that would make loading easier and at least one was 18th century.  I’ve got an old jaeger barrel relieved about 0.020” at the muzzle.  Easy to thumb start.  The 2, mid 19th century barrels I have freshed could be thumb started even after freshing.  The nuzzle is about 0.020 larger in diameter after freshing. I kept thinking eventually the groove cutter would cut to the muzzle but no cigar.

All of this is counter-intuitive from what we “know”. Reminds me of Larry Pletcher’s actual data on flintlock ignition.  We learned things we “knew” were “wrong”.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2018, 07:10:14 PM »
I tried it again last night.  Using my cut-patches-on-the-block ball block I pushed the PRB out of the block and into the muzzle using the ramrod (holding close to the base so as not to break rod).  Not exactly thumb starting, but since I need the ramrod to push the ball out of my  block it actually is just as convenient.

I use a ball block that is thicker-than-caliber.  That way I can lay the patch across the block, push the ball in (THAT can be done by thumb) the hole, and run my patch knife across the surface of the block.  Works slick.  It's much like cutting the patch at the muzzle - only you can load up several in the comfort of your tent.  (I'm all about loading and shooting without removing my gloves).

Offline Daryl

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2018, 10:10:36 PM »
This one was fun & didn't hurt the accuracy.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2018, 10:28:10 PM »
Daryl,

I guess.  If the muzzle of your barrel is the last thing an enemy sees, it might as well be pretty.

Looking at these pictures always gives me the willies.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2018, 10:34:52 PM »
Daryl: is that muzzle treatment done to the lands or the groves?  Did you have some index mark on the face of the barrel or in the bore to know when/where to stop your filing?

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2018, 02:04:40 AM »
Ok, I'll say this again...... THE MUZZLE IS CONED FIRST!
Al the filing is done in the coned area, the crown is down inside 1" to 11/2".
In His grip,

Dane

Offline smoke

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2018, 03:09:11 AM »
Hi I used a tapered cork fishing float with emery cloth wrapped tight. Dan

Offline Daryl

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Re: Tool for rifling coned muzzle.
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2018, 09:15:32 PM »
Ok, I'll say this again...... THE MUZZLE IS CONED FIRST!
Al the filing is done in the coned area, the crown is down inside 1" to 1-1/2".

In this barrel, yes - it had a short 1/2" cone, then was filed.  I tested after coning but before filing then after. No change,
 but groups did open up, just about double, using the same loads as before after the coning - so I cut it off and re-crowned normally.
Accuracy of 1/2" for 5 at 50yards returned. Note, when I say 1/2", not all groups are 1/2" - but in a session, there
are a number of 1/2" groups, with other groups opening up to 3/4" or even 7/8". With the change to the muzzle, the best
groups were an inch = 1", but ran out to 2". I did not like that as hitting small targets at any range, become a lucky shot.
Just because you might be shooting offhand does not mean grouping does not matter.  Whatever the gun will shoot when
rested, is added on to your grouping ability offhand. Thus, if groups double off the bags, they then double offhand as well.

The .45 bl. is the one re-crowned. This radiused crown is about 1/8" deep and is exceptionally easy loading with tight loads. Thumb-start
NO - just use a starter, light smack and in it goes, fully into the rifling.


« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:21:19 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V