Author Topic: Setting up as an 18th century armorer and gunsmith (Read 3220 times)

smart dog · « **on:** December 12, 2018, 02:47:28 AM »

Hi Folks,
Last year I bartered making an English fowler for a complete set of tradesman's dress and work clothing. The clothes are almost ready and I am really excited. I am collecting appropriate tools and I am going to make a Moravian portable bench with a wooden leg vise. However, I really need an appropriate metal bench top vise for the 18th century. For those of you who portray 18th century smiths, do you have any suggestions. An original vise is probably out of the question but is there a suitable style more available that can be substituted? I will search pages of Diderot but thought I would put the question out to you guys. Thanks for any help.

dave

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2018, 03:00:19 AM »

I use a little 18th century watch/clock makers vise. It is very useful for filing small parts. It has a screw clamp and a couple of screw holes. It looks like a mini post vise without the long post. There are lots of them available on ebay. Just look for a good one. You will find one. You will also want a hand vise.

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2018, 03:18:09 AM »

I saw a very nice scaled down leg vise once but forget where.
Be sure to share your outfit and bench plans with us.

Clint · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2018, 04:03:53 AM »

Dave I just bought 3 post vices for a class room, I'm building. Paid $60.00 apiece for them. I could let the smaller one go for the same, as I will be getting a couple more in the spring. I'm in S.E. CT. BM me if you are interested, I'll send pics.Clint Wright(Garden Gate Blacksmith Shop)

Dave B · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2018, 06:06:27 AM »

You cant go wrong with a black smith leg vice. They are several in plates shown in the Portuguese book " Espingarda Perfeyta "(The Perfect Gun) from the 16th century showing them just about like those we have today. Here is one of them. Its fun to pick out those you can recognize and some to speculate about.

M. E. Pering · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2018, 06:25:14 AM »

Somewhere in my mess, I have an old reprint of a book from the 1700s that showed not only carpentry techniques, but also some tools. There are several pictures of vises of all wood construction. In an 18th century gun shoppe, these would have been totally appropriate, and I would wager, common. I have a very old blacksmiths post vise myself, but would never use it for holding a stock. Only for holding metal parts. Though it is broken in several spots, it has served me well and I will continue to use it.

But consider a wooden vise while I try and locate my book... I know wooden vises were common in that era, since many iron vises had to be imported, and were thus expensive.

Matt

thecapgunkid · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2018, 02:15:28 PM »

Get a hold of the folks up at the Jacobsburg Museum in Nazareth Pa.

You can't miss with those guys.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2018, 05:38:12 PM »

When I was young and had lots of energy and cared about this sort of thing I used a post vice when I did historically correct demos. All that junk was sure heavy to carry around. Besides, the most common question you're going to get is "Is that a REAL GUN?" Followed by the second most popular question "How'd you make the barrel?" Once you explain you bought the barrel pre made just like they did 250 years ago they scoff and completely dismiss what you're doing and wander away with their finger stuck in their nose...

It's as if you didn't hand forge the barrel out of coat hangers it makes everything else you're doing irrelevant.

Sorry to be a negative Nelly, but I got tired of trying to educate the masses. They're lucky to even be self aware let alone understand what you're trying to show them.

From those experiences I found you're a lot better off teaching those few people that already have a specific interest in ML rifles. Although not done with 18th century dress or tools , the teaching I did at Conner Prairie with Jim Chambers in the kit building class was most satisfying and I believe those students learned quite a bit. In fact, I'm considering teaching again out of my shop. I can take two students at a time for a one on one , or nearly so experience and I feel I can be much more effective passing on what I know to those few very interested individuals than I ever did doing demos to the shuffling mases.

But, more power to you, you have much more patience with things like that and I wish you great success. I hope you keep a journal of mind numbing questions you can share with us.

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2018, 03:06:17 AM »

I will second that nomination!

A bit envious of Smart Dog, with the period costumes and tools. Wish you the best of luck!

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2018, 03:55:21 PM »

Guys,

Small period vises are quite easy to obtain with just a little searching. E-Bay is a good source. Here are three period pieces that work very well. The first is a small bench vise, very similar to the larger post vises, but much smaller and without the post.

This is the type of vise used in conjunction with a bow drill having the bow drill pivot dimples only on the left side of the vise jaws - for a right handed gunsmith.

The next is a hand vise or a pin vise. This one does not clamp onto the work bench, but again are quite common to find.

The last is a combination of the hand vise with an addition of a feature to allow the vise to be clamped onto the work bench. This type is quite unusual, but can be quite handy.

Let me encourage you to continue to find and use the original tools. Don't let the "nay-sayers" discourage you at all.

Jim

bob in the woods · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2018, 04:14:01 PM »

When we have set up our display during our local "Heritage" week , our experience is much on par with Mike Brooks with the exception of the younger folks. Many of them show a real interest in history and how things were done. Perhaps because of the overt push of technology in their lives ?

Long John · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2018, 05:12:13 PM »

Dave,

I have been doing gun-making demos at a local middle-school and at various other venues through my local ML club for many years. My set-up employs the same traveling work-bench I use at Dixon's each summer. Most of my tools are NOT period correct simply because I haven't made the effort to acquire real period tools. I avoid plastic handles and obviously modern tools but my rasps, scrapers etc. are modern. I envy your dedication to period portrayals. It is something I would like to do too, when I finally retire from work.

I have not had the same experience that Mike relates. The program my ML club does at the Vernon, NJ middle-school is a yearly highlight. We spend the entire day doing demos for 15 sets of 10 to 20 students each. In each group there is at least one kid whose imagination and fascination is sparked to life. They all are as cute as can be! At the end of one long day of 15 20-minute spiels on the role of fire arms in colonial America and 18th century gun-building one girl hopped out of her mother's car and ran up to me and gave me an effusive thank you and a hug, and then ran back to the car to continue on home. Those kind of moments sparkle like diamonds in my memory. It is rare that I don't have at least one "moment" where I touched someone with what I was doing. Most look and continue on, but there is almost always one in every crown who really connects with the craft, the history or the art. I find it very rewarding.

Good luck!

JMC
John Cholin

bob in the woods · « **Reply #12 on:** December 13, 2018, 05:30:24 PM »

You are right , Mr Cholin. The young folks are interested....but their parents ? Not so much

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2018, 05:55:38 PM »

I also used to bring all my 18th century clothes , guns, gear to the middle school in the district I worked in for a day of education in the social studies department every year for many years. We even went out side and did a little shooting for a couple years, kids loved it. Then one day one of the boys picked up one of the rifles off the table, yanked back the hammer, put the muzzle against a girl's temple and pulled the trigger. I went slightly ballistic. And that was the last year I did demos for the school. It was getting near the mid 90's at the time and the principal was getting a lot of anti gun pressure so it was probably a good time to quit anyway. BTW, the anti gun pressure was coming from the teachers, not the parents.

Huntschool · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2018, 02:28:53 AM »

Mike:

As a retired educator I must concur with your last remark completely. As the teaching cadre becomes younger their developed opinions become more and more based on current more liberal thinking.

My wife says they are too many generations removed from the farm...…. Remember, even in some rural communities some kids grow up thinking food come from the grocery store so why do we need farmers…..

I could tell some real, almost funny, stories about this stuff...….

smart dog · « **Reply #15 on:** December 14, 2018, 02:39:57 AM »

Hi Folks,
Thank you all so much for your responses. This has been really helpful to me. I will be in contact with those offering vises very soon. I think you guys offer me just the right solutions and I am grateful. I've already started doing events with borrowed clothes and a motley assortment of tools. I definitely appreciate and understand those who did this and eventually got burnt out by it. My plan is a little different. While I intend, and have, worked at re-enactments as an armorer fixing muskets and rifles while talking to the public, I also discuss at different events, the artistry of firearms. Those events usually do not attract the same folks that come out for historical re-enactments and sometimes they are sponsored by local art councils. My emphasis is on the decorative qualities of American and European firearms. I discuss them as examples of the finest decorative arts of the times and place. In a sense I do homage to Joe Kindig and Keith Neal, emphasizing the art forms and then demonstrating those arts. So a resident of Philadelphia or some other urban area watches me sculpt a silver wrist plate or carve a fancy design behind a cheek piece on a golden age long rifle in real time. My emphasis is that firearms demonstrate some of the best decorative arts of the time and place and there is a reason why all of the great art museums in the world have armor and firearm collections. This is my goal. I love working at historical re-enactments and talking to the choir but I also want to take my dog and pony show to a different audience. Maybe it will pay off and maybe not.

dave

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #16 on:** December 14, 2018, 05:04:21 PM »

I won't speculate on a pay off in today's world outside of our gun culture. It will be interesting to hear how well you're accepted. I believe you're approaching this from the right angle, A discussion of gun art and it's evolution as well as the history of how all of it came about is something people never consider, could be very educational. I think probably 80% talk and only 20% actual work would be a great balance if you could get people to stop and listen. Having several guns in several levels of completion would be very helpful and give you more time for explanation and save you having to do a lot of work in less than ideal conditions.

Thinking back about when I used to do this I can think of some mistakes I made and I'll pass them on. I really needed a stout bench as I was mainly doing heavy work and not as much explanation as I could have. So, my bench was way too heavy, couldn't get it in or out of the truck by myself. The post vise was too big and heavy too. I also brought too many tools. 18th century tools aren't needed , just don't have any with plastic handles and nobody will know the difference. People WILL argue with you more over your tools than what you're actually doing. Be prepared for things like "They didn't have drill bits back then." You'll get some really interesting comments.....

Probably a light weight collapsible bench and a lightish vise would be just the ticket and limit your work to some casual relief carving and engraving, and probably some inletting, I'd avoid any heavy stock shaping as you need too heavy duty of a bench.

David R. Pennington · « **Reply #17 on:** December 14, 2018, 05:11:32 PM »

Keep us posted. I’m sure we would all like to see some photos of your presentation.

WKevinD · « **Reply #18 on:** December 14, 2018, 05:36:58 PM »

Dave, I pay close attention to all your presentations at Dixons so I'm sold on your presentation style. I know that Dixons is the right audience for an interested crowd but I think you could pull off a good a period correct presentation, or at least good enough to satisfy both the knowledgeable and the curious.
I'd like to run into you at an event this season. If you have any tentative events planned please let me know. I hit a few through New England and the North East in general.
As offered by Mike keep it light. No fun spending four hours setting up benches, tools, gun racks...and then having it rain all weekend.

Kevin

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #19 on:** December 14, 2018, 05:47:00 PM »

Here is a link to an older topic that may be of interest. The articifer's or journeyman's box of tools.

Jim

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22390.msg214020#msg214020

smart dog · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2018, 02:15:17 AM »

Hi Folks,
I must apologize to all of you. I did not respond as I should because I am very busy trying to get guns done so they can go out soon. I appreciate all the responses and I will post photos of my progress. I've responded to several of you who have vises and I'll make a decision very soon on what to buy. Regardless of that, I am so appreciative of your support, encouragement, and critiques. I hope all of you know that and also that I get it. I understand the fabric of what I am working with and towards. You are my friends, and gave good guidance, and I thank you.

dave

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2018, 03:32:06 PM »

Guys,

From a comment made in the over the back fence section, here are some photos of the use of a bow drill that pivots in a dimple on the side of the vise.

Here is the bow drill with a replaceable fishtail drill bit.

Here is the bow drill without the bit.

I find that I am not coordinated enough to use this set-up. A bit like juggling three balls in the air for me.

Jim

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #22 on:** December 24, 2018, 08:30:47 PM »

Jim, it would probably help to have a "sub-teenager" to operate the bow drill while you apply the metal to the bit.
And NO, not me - I am a bunch of decades, not to say scores, too old to play the part of said sub-teenager!

Nordnecker · « **Reply #23 on:** December 24, 2018, 09:28:25 PM »

Yes, these are the pictures I was referring to. Do you see the 45 degree holding device?

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #24 on:** December 24, 2018, 11:18:58 PM »

I've demonstrated at various times in the past. While in college I worked at the Ohio Village in Columbus in their living history museum as a gunsmith. Today I find the thought about as apealing as a root canal. Which I think I need by way..

It's good that others are willing and happy to to these sorts of things, though. Wish you the best, Dave.

Jim

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Author Topic: Setting up as an 18th century armorer and gunsmith (Read 3220 times)