Author Topic: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??  (Read 1331 times)

Offline Molly

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Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« on: December 29, 2018, 04:35:48 PM »
Anyone ever encountered a patch box lid button like the one pictured?  It is under the front end of the toe plate, somewhat hidden, and you depress the front of the toe plate to open the lid.  It may not be clear but the wood beneath the toe plate is inlet to exact shape of the plate.





Offline rich pierce

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2018, 04:45:42 PM »
That is how many Bucks County pb releases work.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 05:27:54 PM »
Henry Leman used that style on earlier guns.

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 07:01:14 PM »
Yours is very much like many of John Derrs’ releases. See my images of his releases in the ALR library under “Patch boxes and signatures”.  Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
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Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2018, 07:17:31 PM »
Yes, I see Derr's and they are similar.  This is on a rifle believed to be a PA made "contract rifle" around 1812.  Here is a full shot of the rifle and the opposite side showing the military style plate and cheek rest.  Probably will never know the maker but maybe get near the area and have possible makers identified.






Offline rich pierce

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2018, 07:55:08 PM »
Very cool rifle there, for folks looking for plain and rugged.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline bama

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2018, 09:09:41 PM »
John Brooks a Lancaster smith used this type of release on his rifles.
Jim Parker

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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2018, 12:45:38 AM »
Rich is right on with his comment on Buck's Co. rifles.  Here's a picture of a A. Verner rifle I built with this feature.



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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2018, 02:15:12 AM »
John Davidson used a release like this, and I have tried it.   In my experience, it is not the best mechanism.    There is not enough travel to be reliable.

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2018, 02:25:54 AM »
Apparently more common that I thought.  Seems reasonable to say it was probably made in PA.  This mechanism seems to function flawlessly.  I think it is spring loaded as once depressed the button pops "out".  The drawback to me is that the brass over the button can get snagged on something and bend it or even break it however I think even if that happened one could still just push the button to open the lid.  Very much appreciate the info.  Now, anyone want to take a stab at the maker? :)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2018, 02:44:11 AM »
Molly,
I own an original VA flint rifle that probably came from west of Salem VA area that has that style release. Will dig a photo out and post later. Have go pick-up daughter and son-in-law up at the airport in a few minutes.
Dennis
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Offline Will Payne

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2018, 04:55:51 AM »
Molly,
I've seen one those I saw one at a place called O.V.P.R.
🕯
Will

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Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2018, 05:09:47 AM »
Dennis:  Please do.  So if yours was made west of Salem then the box release is not necessarily an indication of a PA made rifle.  But if it is a "contract rifle"as I believe it is, it likely would not have been made in SW VA...PA would seem more likely.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2018, 06:39:53 AM »
Here is the patchbox release for the rifle I was talking about. Pressing in the center of the toe plate releases the patch box catch.



You might like to see more of this rifle. Here is the original RR with a tow worm that Jim Web made for it. He looked through all of his taps/dies and the only thing that fit the threads were a set of English taps, not sure what that means.





The rifle is not signed anywhere but when I pulled the buttplate to make a copy I noticed what appears to be initials on the inside of the buttplate.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 06:59:36 AM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2018, 06:56:36 AM »
Guess I had better show the rifle so you can see if you can place the style to the area. According to Gary Brumfield the rifle was found by someone that worked in the Williamsburg Gun shop, forgot who he said it was, I didn't recognize him. The gun supposedly came out of the area west of Salem VA which I assume would be somewhere in Augusta County VA.

It has a straight tapered barrel and appears to have the original flintlock in it.
Photo below by Mark Elloitt - Mechanicsville VA



"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 03:25:58 PM »
Would have replied sooner but had to switch to a different computer.  Drooled on the key board and shorted out mine.  More later.  West of Salem...."JW" you know what I'm thinking!

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2018, 05:26:27 PM »
OK.  Settled down now. DY-NO-MITE rifle.  I have see photos of it before and also recall some discussion on it somewhere...probably a thread here on the forum.  Don't recall what conclusions were drawn however. I may also have seen it in a printed article sometime in the past.  I won't begin to make any conclusive remarks...just don't have that knowledge.  Features certainly are "early" so "Augusta" County" being organized in 1745 fits. (Augusta was HUGE when formed.)

I have seen photos of a few rifles attributed to and in one case, signed by John Wilson but I recall they were probably later.  Cannot connect features to this rifle specifically to those, yet the old brains seems to feel there are similarities.  Also recall that John Wilson was said to probably have been more of a barrel maker than a gun maker.  Don't know if that is correct or not.  I suppose if he made barrels he might also have made other parts and thus the "JW" may indicate that JW made the butt plate but not necessarily the rifle.  John Wilson had his shop along Craig Creek in what is now Botetourt County.  I also recall something from Wallace Gusler saying that there were other members of the Wilson family who made guns in what is now Giles County.  I have a rifle attributed to Wilson (on a claim made by the seller).  Don't see much similarity to yours other than both are sturdy working guns built for the rugged life if the day.  So in my mind I'll view that as a John Wilson rifle and then add that it should not be in Richmond.  Wilson made it to be in where I live so you need to sell it to me.

BTW, we have done some courthouse research on Wilson.  I recall we found his will, an inventory of his estate at the time of death and a hand drawn map of the land he purchased along Craig Creek.  Really a neat drawing.  BUT nothing specifically indicated he made guns or even owned the wares by which they were produced.

Offline jdm

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2018, 06:04:42 PM »
Molly, On your rifle I'm thinking you might want to check out Joseph Henry's work. The patch box looks similar to his and I've seen patch box releases similar to yours on his work.  I don't want to through cold water on a nice old gun but.... If I remember right the contract rifles were single trigger. You might take a close look at the lock also.  The round back I think is a little late for a early contract gun. It's just my thoughts and their wrong about half the time anyway.  Thanks for posting it would be a fun rifle to study.
JIM

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2018, 03:27:48 AM »
Quote
BTW, we have done some courthouse research on Wilson.  I recall we found his will, an inventory of his estate at the time of death and a hand drawn map of the land he purchased along Craig Creek.  Really a neat drawing.  BUT nothing specifically indicated he made guns or even owned the wares by which they were produced.
Modify message

Happen to know what time period this was? The reason I ask is my 4th GGF William Gillespie "In 1767, he was processioner from the mouth of Cowpasture to the mouth of Craig's Creek".
Could be my Gillespie family knew John Wilson if he was there before they moved just after the Rev War.

You may want to take a look at "The Annals of Bath County VA" (online, do a search for it) which gives a good account of the settlement of the Cowpasture River Valley. My Gillespie's settlement is told in the book even though they were in Botetourt County. You might find some interesting information for the area.
Dennis
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 05:59:06 AM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2018, 03:52:11 AM »
Dennis:  I really cannot recall but do not believe it was that early.  Botetourt County was formed in 1770.  I'm thinking the Wilson info dates to maybe the 1790's.  I will get back in the courthouse and check it out.  It will be easy to find as I know the exact places to look.  Hang on and I'll let you know next week.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2018, 05:47:27 AM »
https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:143442&id=I1877
Has this info:
Name: John WILSON
Sex: M
Birth: Abt 1742 in , Botetourt, Virginia
Death: Abt 1820 in , Botetourt, Virginia

Looks like they were there while my Gillespie's were still in the area. I suspect old John would have served in the Rev War.
Dennis
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 05:53:09 AM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Herb

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2019, 11:06:06 PM »
Here is a Jacob Wigle rifle, Westmoreland Co, PA.  It has a toe line lid release.


Top is the original, bottom rifle is my copy, closer to the camera and looking larger. but is the same size.

The brass "lid"  pushes on a brass cup over a push rod that bears against the spring in the butt.
Herb

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2019, 11:58:27 PM »
Interesting, thanks.  It looks like the feature was more common than I realized but mostly a PA makers feature.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Patch Box Release - Seen any like this ??
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2019, 10:06:34 AM »
Rich is right on with his comment on Buck's Co. rifles.  Here's a picture of a A. Verner rifle I built with this feature.




In reading this thread, I was going to say, with this very picture, but uploaded from my computer, MY Verner has the same release. LOL
Actually, ,my picture is slightly different.


Daryl

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