Author Topic: Diameter for 20ga. bare RB loading in my smoothbore? (Read 4711 times)

Maven · « **on:** January 01, 2019, 08:31:21 PM »

I would like to try loading my 20ga. smoothbore with a bare RB (with appropriate wadding fore & aft, but am unsure of the diameter of the RB I'll need. As far as I can determine, the muzzle measures .618". (I'll recheck this just to be certain.) Although I've tried bare RB's in this gun before, they don't group better than 6" - 8" @ 25 yd. probably because they are no more than .603" in diameter. Patched RB's between .598" - .603" OTOH do much, much better.

In short, should I be ordering a [Jeff Tanner] mould which drops a pure Pb RB of .612"? .613"? or .614" diameter? Thanks in advance for your guidance, as it is much appreciated. And Happy New Year to one and all!

Daryl · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2019, 11:32:41 PM »

I would suggest a ball of around .615" to .616" for a .618" bore,
just to ensure the capability of several shots
before fouling became an issue.
This is for bare ball and wads only.
.590" for a patched load.

alacran · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2019, 04:03:20 PM »

I have a 44" .620 Getz barrel in my Frenchy gun. I shoot a .600 ball over 70grains of Goex 2f I use a quarter of a cushion wad over the powder, and an "A" card over the ball.

That's the kind of groups I get with that load at 25 yards. I have shot better groups on a slug gun target. Just easier to see.

Flint62Smoothie · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2019, 08:01:48 PM »

My 20-gauge smoothies measure 0.617 to 0.620” and I use the same 0.600” RBs regardless of patched or bareball. The bareball loads are the 1/2-cushion wad or tow, under the ball and have played around with felt wadding 50:50 beeswax/olive oil lubed). At 25-yards they be close to 3-shots touching, provide “I am on”, but note I shoot offhand 2-3 times per week (also air rifle & high power).

Lately I’ve been using more traditional methods to the period of the arm, i.e., service loads with heavy powdah loads and paper cartridges. I do use smaller RBs here, but same 50:50 wax/oil lube, wrapped in the French manner, not that of the dreaded ’Anglais’!

Any of these should produce loads that’ll shoot better than you can too!

bob in the woods · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2019, 04:02:08 PM »

I have a .610 and a .600 mold . My current 20 bore won't take the .610 unless bare balled, so I standardized on the .600 and it works fine no matter how I load it. In my experience, smaller sized balls actually shoot better than larger in my smoothbores. This is the exact opposite of my rifles.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2019, 07:00:59 PM »

The principal behind the bare ball theory is simply that the ball is carried down the bore captured in a cone of hot gas. So ANY wad, patch, or card, between powder, and ball will negate the cone. Because it takes a lot of hot gas to capture the ball, the charge has to be correspondingly large. The ball should also be at least twenty thousandths undersized to allow sufficient room for the gas to center the ball. Since the formula depends on controlled leakage, pressures will be low, as will recoil.

Hungry Horse

Flint62Smoothie · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2019, 08:40:12 PM »

Quote from: Hungry Horse on January 03, 2019, 07:00:59 PM

The principal behind the bare ball theory is simply that the ball is carried down the bore captured in a cone of hot gas. So ANY wad, patch, or card, between powder, and ball will negate the cone.

Not exactly ... as that is “our modern theory” (but not mine ... ) backwardsly applied to the historical use of bareball loads.

Back then, they didn’t give a wit as to any theory or ‘cone of gas’ nonsense ... in fact I’d opine they never even considered it or thought about it. Bare ball loads were done as a practical matter for FAST loading/shooting and survival. Key word ... survival; clearly a life or death situation.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2019, 08:49:40 PM »

I made no reference to historical context. I was simply stating what modern shooters use when shooting bare ball. Why aren’t you all over the jug choke crowd? That wasn’t common until the very late percussion era.

Hungry Horse

alacran · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2019, 04:55:09 PM »

I have shot bareball directly over the powder and used leaves to hold it all down. It shot very well but had to use a lot more powder than I use using a 1/4 cushion wad over the powder. Both of the groups that I posted previously show three balls touching within the five shot groups. I have shot similar groups without the 1/4 fiber wad, but with 20 grains more powder.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2019, 08:17:33 PM »

I'm curious to know why more of you didn't submit targets for the smoothbore postal shoot?

Flint62Smoothie · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2019, 08:29:47 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on January 04, 2019, 08:17:33 PM

I'm curious to know why more of you didn't submit targets for the smoothbore postal shoot?

... not into postal shoots ... just prefer ‘live’ mano-a-mano action or competion I guess. But thank you for the thought.

hanshi · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2019, 11:40:12 PM »

My smoothbore has an ID of around .610; a bit tight. A bare ball load with a .600" ball gets into that 6" - 8" grouping at 50 yards for 5 shots. If I'm careful it will do a little better than that. I hunt with a .600" prb. Used to mold a few with WWs for a .606" ball out of the same mold. The larger ball did a bit better but not as much as simply going to a prb. I put the BB on top of a cushion or felt wad along with the overshot card and seated them as one unit; that seemed to make a difference in accuracy.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2019, 05:47:52 PM »

A .600 ball in a .610 bore does not allow enough space for a cone of gas to capture the ball without it making contact with the barrel at some point during its trip down bore. A .595, or .590, would likely produce tighter groups. Powder charge should be somewhere near a hundred grains of 2F, or even 1F if you have some. No cards or wads between powder, and ball, just a card or a piece of old wool blanket to keep the ball on top of the charge.

Hungry Horse

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2019, 08:14:42 PM »

HH: I'd love to see a target shot with your recipe...even at 25 yards. I'm skeptical, but have an open mind.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2019, 08:54:47 PM »

If your really skeptical, go out and make a target of your own. The recipe isn’t complicated, and doesn’t take a bunch of “special stuff”. In fact the recipe requires you lose a bunch of that “special stuff” that creates recoil, make loading a pain, and often sends the ball where it shouldn’t go. Besides if you make the target, I won’t get accused of fudging the results.

Hungry Horse

Daryl · « **Reply #15 on:** January 05, 2019, 10:27:11 PM »

Yes, we will have to try that some day Taylor. Next weekend might be a good time.
Gotta go boogie-boarding today, soon.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #16 on:** January 05, 2019, 10:27:55 PM »

HH: I trust your input. There is nothing in your history here to suggest otherwise.

I have shot blank loads all afternoon from a BB Musket...just powder, sometimes with tp wad...in parades. I suspect cleaning a gun after shooting without a patch to be similar to the experience I encountered with the blank loads...extreme fouling. Do you experience difficulty seating a ball in a heavily fouled bore, HH?

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2019, 12:23:27 AM »

That is another reason for the undersized ball. You’ll get quite a few shots before you have to swab it out. I won’t flimflam you, it gets mighty dirty after eight or ten shots. The ball should be at least twenty thousandths under bore size ( my old tradegun has a .625 bore, and I shoot .595 balls). Dimpling is better, but I can’t say it drastically affects accuracy. If I have time I do it, but get good results without dimpling.
We had a musket frolic last spring, and shot at silhouettes of British redcoats, at a hundred yards. I had no problem hitting them. It was a timed event, and spectators were surprised how fast we could reload, and fire, with pretty good accuracy.

Hungry Horse

bob in the woods · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2019, 07:21:39 PM »

Question for Hungry Horse. With the undersized bare ball and a simple over wad , the placement of a sprue would be critical , would it not ? Do you try to eliminate all traces of a sprue for best performance ?

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2019, 10:46:03 PM »

I really think that is why dimpling is recommended by most shooters that use this method. I cut the sprue off as close as I can, and give the at least a short tumble.

Hungry Horse

bob in the woods · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2019, 12:13:44 AM »

I use paper cartridges almost exclusively when shooting round balls in my smoothbores, but will be giving this a try as soon as the weather co-operates.

Flint62Smoothie · « **Reply #21 on:** January 07, 2019, 03:31:22 AM »

Quote from: bob in the woods on January 06, 2019, 07:21:39 PM

Question for Hungry Horse. With the undersized bare ball and a simple over wad , the placement of a sprue would be critical , would it not ? Do you try to eliminate all traces of a sprue for best performance ?

Did you ever see the testing done many years ago in Muzzle Blasts by the ‘Bevel Brothers’? Their testing proved it really didn’t matter where the sprue was.

Daryl · « **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2019, 11:38:45 AM »

Interesting, they also found coning destroyed accuracy.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2019, 04:39:26 PM »

Hi Daryl. I remember reading that article, however , wasn't it about rifles ? Sprue up or sprue down ? I believe that if you are depending on a cushion of gas surrounding the ball to centre it in the bore, the presence of such an irregular surface if on a side between ball and barrel, would affect the accuracy. I do plan to try this method of loading , but will wait until the weather is nicer .

Daryl · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2019, 08:46:21 PM »

Me too, although I do dread the cleanup with all that fouling.
Hooked breaches rule!!!!!

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Author Topic: Diameter for 20ga. bare RB loading in my smoothbore? (Read 4711 times)