Double balling

[Pete G.]

Davy Crockett did it, but he only had one rifle.

[HelmutKutz]

Hanshi,
50-75 yards of travel after being hit can make the difference between life, death, happiness or severe injury when hunting dangerous game. If regulations restrict multi-ball loads, I would increase the bore to 12 gauge or larger.

[hanshi]

HelmutKutz, I have a much respected .62 smoothbore that drops deer DRT and I like it more and more as time goes on.  Curiously, I've had more DRTs with my .45 flintlock than the .50s.  I've lived in close contact with wild pigs, huge canebrake rattlers and bears and didn't worry.  The only thing that I was scared of - in my 62 years in Georgia - were feral dogs.  There were people killed near us and my forestry classmates carried sidearms in their job after graduation.  The sheriff's  dept. killed an entire pack of them after the death of a retired couple.  While I don't recommend this, one person I knew of killed many wild pigs with a .32 muzzleloader.

[HelmutKutz]

I have much respect for the 62 caliber but three 50 caliber balls carry more combined energy than a single 62. The multiple wound channels are also preferred for a faster put down. If one must be limited to single ball, I would accept nothing small than 58 caliber with a hard ball and aim for bone break not bleed out.

[Davemuzz]

I still state (Yup.....call me re-Peat) that the shooting of two separate projectiles vs shooting one projectile of the same weight as the two together, is a math problem.

One projectile of the same weight as the two, will provide you with much higher energy and much more down range penetration than the two separate projectiles ever will.

[Daryl]

I have much respect for the 62 caliber but three 50 caliber balls carry more combined energy than a single 62. The multiple wound channels are also preferred for a faster put down. If one must be limited to single ball, I would accept nothing small than 58 caliber with a hard ball and aim for bone break not bleed out.

Helmut, get a 14, 12, or 11 bore rifle and do both, smash bone and bleed them out.

[will payne]

This is what can happen if the second ball 'hydraulics' back up the bore after you thought it was seated on the first.  And for what gain?










No one was seriously injured, by the Grace of God, and we never did find the hammer.

thank the lord that guy was was not hert.

[hanshi]

I never even think in terms of "energy" chasing game in the bush.  One ball is all it has ever took for quickly dropping game in my 60 years of shooting.  Energy doesn't kill (with muzzleloaders), it's tissue damage & disruption.

[HelmutKutz]

Terminal performance is proportional directly to the combination of energy transfer and permanent wound channel creation. It is a physics matter where the amount of energy transferred from multiple balls is greater than that transferred from a single ball even when the single ball is larger within reason. A 12 gauge will produce a sufficient wound channel and break bone but all else being same three 58c or 60c balls spread in the kill zone will always be more effective for termination speed. Factor in also the combined surface area and huge difference is demonstrated by physics.

[Davemuzz]

I never even think in terms of "energy" chasing game in the bush.  One ball is all it has ever took for quickly dropping game in my 60 years of shooting.  Energy doesn't kill (with muzzleloaders), it's tissue damage & disruption.

It doesn't matter if you do or don't think of "energy", it's a scientific fact and can be measured and is there even if you don't think of it.

[Old Ford2]

A single .45 ball at 2000 fps at fifty ( 50 ) yards behind the front legs or behind the ear will drop a deer every time.
A .58, .60, or .69 cal. ball hitting a deer straight on, quartering away, or even a Texas bulls eye will put it down.
Know you target, know your gun, and know where your gun will hit, will always give you good results.
Fred

[smylee grouch]

I am in the single ball camp. I have never shot at game with a double ball much less three balls. I know a couple of guys who have shot double ball at targets and neither one could get accurate enough loads for game shooting. As always, shot placement is key and if you know your load, one ball or two isn't accurate why would you trust it to hit where you want it. JMHO

[hanshi]

If a high "energy" level is required to kill a deer, put away your bows because they don't have enough energy.  I've noticed that "energy" is often confused with "momentum".  Two balls; illegal where I hunt.

[Daryl]

When the learning stops, " A man convinced against his will, if of the same opinion still."

I see no benefit to multiple ball loads, except for one match we had back in 1976 of so.
25 yards, high score in 2 minutes. I had a Sharon 'deep groove buttoned barrel" I bought from Hall
in Kalispel Montana in '75.

I didn't use patches, but did use .375" pure lead balls, a handful each shot, pushed down several at a time

using a steel rod- quickly.

 I won the contest & the 10 or 20 lb. chunk of buffalo meat when was first place prizes.

I had 27 balls on the target for score & the lowest score was 6pts per ball.  Multiple balls do have a place.

I would never consider using a multiple ball load for big game hunting, especially here, where your shot might

be only 15 yards, or 150 yards.  Accuracy and reliability are what is needed. I would/could not trust the double ball load

to hit where I needed it to.

Afterall, a double ball load in my hunting rifle would be 964gr. weight - what powder charge would you double ballers suggest?

[smylee grouch]

Daryl, half the ball weight!      BTW your thoughts pretty much echo mine and it appears many others on this forum.

[HelmutKutz]

I do apologize for my confusion as I thought this forum was for the exchange of information and historical information in particular but apparently it is only for the dissertation of certain opinions. I shan't be a bother again.
HK

[rich pierce]

Helmet, forums are free-for-all’s. Ya never know what you’re hoping to get and folks don’t always know or care what you’re looking for. They are just thinking out loud. I’d not be discouraged.

When I go hunting for good chert to make gun flints for myself, I probably look at 1000 rocks in a creek bed and find one to dig up or check more closely. A lot of those turn out to be unsuitable. Odds here of finding something to take home and work on are much better.

[Hungry Horse]

Yes, it’s very dangerous to shoot double balls if you patch both of them, as this destroyed rifle so aptly illustrates. If you shoot a relatively tight patch ball combination, it pretty hard not to compress air between the two balls. So, drop the first ball down on the powder bare, and then patch the second one to keep it tight against the first ball.
 The same sort of disaster can happen in a smoothbore shooting buck and ball loads if nitro cards, and or wads,  that seal the bore to the point a chamber of air is captured between the projectiles.

  Hungry Horse

[hanshi]

It's not my mission to change anyone's mind or convince others what they're  doing is wrong; unless what they are doing is clearly dangerous.  I often do provide information that points out misconceptions, however.  The quest for high energy numbers needed to kill deer is, IMHO, right up there with the old "dwell time" explanation of some years ago.  A knife, arrow or a slow moving bullet has little energy but maybe considerable "dwell time" relatively speaking.  But it seems to be difficult sometimes to gain traction for "tissue disruption" as a simple cause for terminal effect on game; too simple maybe?  I'm quite fine with various ways to load that give shooters confidence.  It's just that it's always preferable to know how terminal effects occur and the logic that defines them.

I say do whatever blows your skirt up; just be safe.  If it's legal, I find no fault with it.  Dbl ball is illegal in all my hunting jurisdictions.

[Davemuzz]

Heavy and slow will always out penetrate light 'n fast.

[Daryl]

Considering either .45 or .50 will pen to the off side and/or exit with a pure lead ball started at 2,000fps(which will usually be
shown to give the best accuracy), I do not see a reason to slow it down with 2 balls for possibly better penetration & what will
amount to greater elevation required over longer distances and poorer accuracy to go along with that - sorry- I see 0 reason
except for in an area like Herb noted. Even them, I would simply use a .45 or larger calibre that used a ball of the correct weight.

[HelmutKutz]

Penetration is not correlative with the effects of terminal performance beyond the projectile having enough momentum to reach the vitals. Terminal performance requires the transfer of energy in a manner which it is usable. Energy exiting the other side is unused, wasted. For the one who mentioned using a bow, why use cutting point and not target point for hunting big animals? Both have same velocity, momentum and energy, yet only one uses energy effectively for terminal performance, why? Same thing with one versus multiple ball when compared within given range and parameters, multiple ball produces higher energy transfer and makes more wound channels which improves terminal performance. It is a matter of physics and biology. I am not arguing legal or not, but if not laws are poorly thought out.

For ones who claim multiple ball are somehow dangerous to load I ask why so many have survived shooting fowlers for centuries? Loading two or three balls is no different than loading one or a shot charge. If a man does not understand physics of loading, he should not be shooting muzzleloader. Same as shot or buck and ball, components are started at the muzzle and seated all at same time. To attempt seating separately or not using patches is just foolness like ramming wads before putting in shot and cap wad, it just trap air by piston effect.

[smylee grouch]

Interesting discussion for sure. I'm wondering how accurate your double or three ball loads are at say 50,75, and 100 yds. To me a hunter would be doing his target animal a gross injustice by risking a shot that wasn't up to the task, accuracy wise.

[HelmutKutz]

Interesting discussion for sure. I'm wondering how accurate your double or three ball loads are at say 50,75, and 100 yds. To me a hunter would be doing his target animal a gross injustice by risking a shot that wasn't up to the task, accuracy wise.

Like a fowler shots are kept within the maximum working distance determined by pattern spread which is typically 60-70m.

[smokinbuck]

Don't know about 50-75-100 yards but at a shoot some time ago I was just plumb wore out and had 2 shots left to take. I loaded my rifle with a double ball (both patched), did not increase the powder charge and let fly at 25 yards. My recollection is that the balls hit within less than an inch of each other in the black. 1/2 stock Vincent style rifle in .40 caliber.
Mark