Author Topic: Barrel markings  (Read 1016 times)

Offline wabeek

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Barrel markings
« on: January 06, 2019, 04:42:09 PM »
The Kentucky Longrifle Facebook site shows a J. Daub  Sr. rifle, Bushy Run '18 show, top barrel flat with a round ended cross in outline.  Any thoughts as to whose mark?  Before  1800?  Have you seen this mark elsewhere?  Thank you for indulging an internet newbe!

Offline JTR

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 01:32:33 AM »
Hi wabeek, and welcome to this site!
Do you mean the KRA site?
Can you post a picture from there, as I don't do facebook.
John
John Robbins

Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 01:50:44 AM »



Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 02:04:15 AM »
John, thank you for your interest.  Please bear with me as this process is strange!  The photo  may require a magnifying glass but the mark is there.  Any thoughts?  Richard

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 02:23:35 AM »
Looks like an Allentown gun, or around Bucks Co. I believe Daub was a builder in that area. Lokks like a 1790-ish gun from this view. Sure would  like to see more of that gun.
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Offline JTR

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 03:02:45 AM »
I have a piece of old barrel with a similar cross mark on it, but have never found it in any book. One guy said he thought it was a Spanish mark, but I don't know.
Jacob Daub was a North hampton maker I believe, 1780-ish as I remember. I have pictures of two of his rifles, (someplace, lost, on this new computer) one of which I tried to buy at auction, but was outbid. His carving, from the two I know of, was incised and raised, similar to a Bucks/ N Hampton gun.

There's a couple very knowledgeable guys on here for a maker like this, so maybe one of them will pop in.

John
John Robbins

Online jdm

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 03:13:07 AM »
If I'm remembering this right  there is a picture in a book on the rev war by a guy named Moore. There was a picture of a rifle by  Daub in it . Bucks county gun . I don't recall if it was signed or not.  I've never seen the cross before but now you've got me looking.

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 03:44:57 AM »
There were Daubs in upper Montgomery, pretty close to the Bucks Co. line.  There are believed to be a Daub Sr. and a Daub Jr., however a lot of it is based upon attributions of unsigned rifles as opposed to factual information.  Also, Jacob Daub Sr. and "Jacob Dubbs" are believed by some to be referring to the same man, again however, nothing signed to my knowledge but lots of attributions.  There are a number of the funky long smooth rifles with the import Euro engraved furniture floating around, and because one has a 'JD' on the wrist escutcheon, they always seem to get attributed to these guys.

To get to the point however, there are I believe 4 or possibly 5 guns around with that dagger mark on the barrel.  It's kind of a 'bulbous' dagger.  I don't believe it has anything to do with the actual maker of the gun, as none of the guns appear to be by the same guy.  Rather, it appears to be a barrel maker's mark, as yet unidentified.  One is on the 'lion and lamb' rifle, probably Christian Oerter in the 1760s.
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Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2019, 06:14:42 PM »
Thank all of you for your contributions.  The  thought that the mark may be a dagger rather than a cross has led me to the ALR archives where there is good discussion of 2/7/06 captioned 'dagger barrel mark'.  I am going to try for some usable photos of  a cross/dagger mark on a barrel side flat, also a Lehigh architecture piece, but I suspect the barrel to be older.  In the meantime I will go back into my cave and  return with photos, hopefully not seeing my shadow at the time!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2019, 06:34:47 PM »
It could be a cross - I've always viewed it as a dagger but possibly it represents a cross, or both, or something else!  I don't really know. 

Here's a later Lehigh-area piece ca. 1800-1810 (Bird/Philadelphia lock) with one of those barrels, probably an earlier restocked barrel and some other restocked parts here and there (including a side plate that looks to have been similar to #42...  ;D ).  Some of the marking was either removed when the barrel was cleaned up for restocking or just worn away, although 'in person' more of it was visible than my pictures.







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Offline gibster

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2019, 12:13:19 AM »
Been reading this thread with some interest. I have an unsigned (smooth) rifle that I was told a couple years ago at the KRA that it was a Daub.  No evidence that it ever had a dagger or cross on the barrel.  I have since looked for pictures of his work but haven't been successful. No idea if this is one that he made or not. Here are a few pictures, let me know what you think.








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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2019, 12:47:33 AM »
Cool rifle.  I believe a number of years ago it was sold through DGW, although I don't know where it went from there.  It does look like a plainer version of the signed work of Daub Jr.  I think there are maybe two signed Daub Jr. rifles?  Eric Armstrong would know better.  No signed Daub Sr. / "Dubbs" rifles of which I am aware.

Great architecture on that rifle!
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Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 09:12:47 PM »







Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 09:46:50 PM »

Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 09:53:45 PM »

Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 09:57:50 PM »







Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
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Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 11:26:09 PM »
I must appologize for my confusion with computer gizmology  right off the bat!  Photos duplicated, others lost and two texts lost. 

The 'dagger/cross" mark is about 2.5" from the breech on the left side flat 1 /2 visible with the barrel bedded in the stock.  The 3 lugs are drilled for pins. 

Butt plate and triggerguard  are engraved in what may be a Germanic style, the butt seeming to have been cut for the plate rather than vice versa and the triggerguard having sustained damage.  The lock, a W. Ketland,is clearly not the original,it,  I suspect may have been destroyed in a common episode which damaged the mortise  slightly and the upper wrist, tang area and lockbolt  side more extensively. The triggerguard  may have been pulled loose at that time as well.  They were crudely but effectively repaired possibly in service at the same time.

The nose cap is gone and the forestock has no pin holes, rather an enlarged hole in the ramrod channel split, likely for a screw or rivet.

The stock has a faint curl, the patchbox lid, more distinct.  The lid may not be original but  fits fine and appears to be old.

Three thimbles are evenly spaced, but not really familiar to me as to dating or school of influence. 

Wish the earlier lock/locks, despite condition, we're around, 'cause this nice little Lehigh wants to talk!  Note, there never was a sideplate...poorboy?

I would genuinely appreciate all of your thoughts!





Offline JTR

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2019, 11:58:25 PM »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 01:20:46 AM »
Nice piece.  The furniture is a fairly common type of imported European gun mounting that was definitely engraved prior to export; in fact, it's also what was utilized upon the so-called "Jacob Dubbs" rifles as well as a number of others.  Obviously, the maker of this rifle cut down the buttplate so as to create a buttplate more suitable for the style of rifle.  I can't see enough of the lock mortise to determine if the lock is a replacement or not but frankly it's of the approx. period of the rifle, probably ca. 1800 + or - a bit, so if it's a replacement that was not added more recently, then the gun likely suffered some damage very early in it's life.  Thanks for posting - cool rifle and I always like seeing these later pieces with wooden boxes.  Those guys held on to that for a while longer than most other regions.
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Offline George

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2019, 12:06:51 AM »
Back in the early 70's when I first started going to Friendship with Lloyd Gammon and George Handcock who split a Booth in the Sheepshead just past Doc Johnson,one or the other had a early Flint with that mark. I don't know what happened to it but my guess would be Jack Lewis Sr. who had the booth just across from them. I don't remember seeing the mark again until this post.

George
George

Offline wabeek

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2019, 12:12:40 AM »
Thank you! Getting all helpful  responses!!

Offline VP

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Re: Barrel markings
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2019, 03:53:44 AM »
That is a nice rifle. I never noticed the dagger on the barrel. Something to keep an eye out for when checking out the rifles on the show tables.

VP