Author Topic: Mystery Gun picture heavy  (Read 1794 times)

Offline WKevinD

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Mystery Gun picture heavy
« on: January 26, 2019, 01:31:44 AM »
Had a friend bring a mystery gun by the shop today.
The overall length 26 3/4"
Barrel 13 3/4" long .69 smooth
Lock 5 1/4"x 1 1/8"
The lock plate is marked and the barrel has marks that are only visible when the barrel is removed.
Weird oversized cheek piece, length of pull 12 1/4"
The barrel is oct to round with the top flat raised out to the front sight the side flats are also raised but only for about 6"
Any ideas?
Kevin



















PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline iloco

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2019, 01:37:49 AM »
Game Poacher Gun...?
iloco

Offline Apriestley

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2019, 01:56:25 AM »
I have something with a very similar lock and marked BT on the barrel bands. It was sold to me as a Swiss musket, though I have seen many German and Dutch guns with similar locks. My lock is fully unmarked.








Offline WKevinD

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2019, 04:22:23 PM »
The lock and trigger are similar to the "swiss musket" pics. The gun is obviously assembled from parts, but for what purpose.
The condition of the wood inside the lock mortice and barrel inlet shows age but the parts are much older.
The barrel with it's raised panels is something I've seen but I can't remember where. A repurposed pistol barrel?
The trigger guard is again familiar but is it a match to the barrel and thimbles?
When I first heard of it "I picked up a canoe gun!" I figured it was a reenactor assembled noisemaker, after disassembly and close up examination I am convinced it was not.
That just left me with a lot of questions and no real answers.

Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2019, 05:54:52 PM »
  Kevin yeah beat me to it..! But seriously could it be some sort of coach
 gun ?   Poachers gun as said before ?
  But then again are we really expecting to find a gun Marked canoe gun ? Lol
 Nice find and a unique firearm.  Oldtravler

Offline Longknife

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2019, 06:31:00 PM »
 Many of the NE Fowling pieces in Grinsdales' book have raised sighting ribs that extend to the muzzles. Parts for these guns were imported from France mostly. I have a barrel that I believe to be  French that has the raised sighting rib. I see no butt plate, exaggerated cheek piece, rough wood finish. The gun is definitely European, and appears to be made by a "not so professional" gun stocker in lower Germany, Switzerland, Austria? For what??? It MUST be the proverbial CANOE GUN that no one wants to admit existed.....LOL,,,Ed
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 06:58:49 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2019, 06:36:47 PM »
I'll go with the theory of a repurposed pistol barrel and an 1800's restock of a bunch of old misc. parts. Why you would want a shouldered mounted gun that short I couldn't say.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Longknife

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2019, 07:00:22 PM »
I'll go with the theory of a repurposed pistol barrel and an 1800's restock of a bunch of old misc. parts. Why you would want a shouldered mounted gun that short I couldn't say.

Admit it Mike,, It's REAL,,,, I can see 'em floating down the Rhine right now!!!...Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2019, 07:21:11 PM »
Its length is around the same size has a Blunderbuss  or coach gun but is definitely not one of those , years ago I did see one that was similar which I took to be a jailers gun some thing that could be used in confined spaces  but it  could be any body's guess has what it was made for
Feltwad

Offline Stophel

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2019, 08:26:54 PM »
These things are usually called "Poachers" guns.  I'm not sure how that whole thing was supposed to work, though.

The lock, at least, seems to be by Johann Jacob Behr, a well known gunsmith from Wuertzburg.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2019, 08:55:32 PM »
These things are usually called "Poachers" guns.  I'm not sure how that whole thing was supposed to work, though.

The lock, at least, seems to be by Johann Jacob Behr, a well known gunsmith from Wuertzburg.
To me it is not a poachers gun it is more of a defence weapon lets look at it, what poacher of that period could afford a gun of that status  he would likely be better off with his lurcher dog .
Feltwad

Offline iloco

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 09:11:35 PM »
Here is a link to some discussion and pictures on poacher guns.  I think this gun is also a poacher gun.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52024.msg518674#msg518674
iloco

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2019, 09:27:39 PM »
Here is a link to some discussion and pictures on poacher guns.  I think this gun is also a poacher gun.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52024.msg518674#msg518674

I have several guns like those they are not poachers guns  they are guns that would be dismantled which could be stored under a seat and the like by people who travelled  by horse drawn vehicles
for protection .
Feltwad 

Offline iloco

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2019, 09:30:47 PM »
You could call a Kentuckey rifle a canoe gun if carried in a canoe. If only the guns could talk.
iloco

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2019, 10:12:18 PM »
  Iloco you nailed it. We have know idea what folks back then called there guns. It's just a term nothing more nothing less. Like us they had a purpose for it and they modified it to fit.
  Coach gun, canoe gun, poachers gun. Call it what yeah want but it is short and that's for sure.. Just like this one...  It's purpose who knows. The racks were added in the 70s.
 Happy Blakeslee have it to me. I have killed a lot of deer with it. It's 45 caliber.






Offline Feltwad

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2019, 10:21:06 PM »
You could call a Kentuckey rifle a canoe gun if carried in a canoe. If only the guns could talk.
A lot of short barrelled guns called poachers guns, coach guns are know more than  cut down long guns  I have enclosed images of a gun  that was purposely built to dismantled it is not a poachers gun but a gun that was carried by travellers  dismantled and put under the seat or such of horse drawn vehicles
Feltwad


« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 10:26:43 PM by Feltwad »

Offline WKevinD

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2019, 12:02:57 AM »
These things are usually called "Poachers" guns.  I'm not sure how that whole thing was supposed to work, though.

The lock, at least, seems to be by Johann Jacob Behr, a well known gunsmith from Wuertzburg.
Thanks ,
I did a quick search using Johann Jacob Behr and came up with a number of pictures that show his signature on the lock and a very similar barrel profile the trigger guards look similar and flattening a pistol guard could well have broken it in the same place so I'll buy the "poachers gun theory" built from an early long barreled pistol (by Behr) using all available parts which would explain no butplate.
Much easier to paddle a canoe without the butplate anyhow.
Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2019, 12:59:19 AM »
I would say it's made for Saturday night social activities in the local Bierstube.

Bob Roller

Offline WKevinD

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2019, 02:35:21 AM »
This is similar in size, known as a sledge gun (keep it under the blankets in the sled, on your way to the pub!)

Kevin




PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2019, 02:48:11 AM »
That last one has to be Swedish or Norwegian?
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2019, 03:21:28 AM »
Outstanding, I love Swedish guns!
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2019, 03:40:44 AM »
Any better pictures of the Baltic lock Kevin?

Offline WKevinD

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2019, 04:04:23 AM »
Richard- Pics are from a file I have, part of a "future plans" file
Mike- Swedish, Norwegen or Russian is my understanding
I love the fact that everything is on the outside of the lockplate and the mainspring is also the frizzen spring.
Kevin





PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2019, 05:58:55 PM »
Richard- Pics are from a file I have, part of a "future plans" file
Mike- Swedish, Norwegen or Russian is my understanding
I love the fact that everything is on the outside of the lockplate and the mainspring is also the frizzen spring.
Kevin






I would say that this lock is a Norwegian Snap haunch or Pecking Hen  it is similar to the Scottish version  and was common in other parts of Europe enclose is a similar image but true flintlock
Feltwad


« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 08:20:04 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Mystery Gun picture heavy
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2019, 06:07:11 PM »
IMO, the gun looks like a restocked Prussian cavalry carbine. I donít have a clue why you would restock such a gun and not put the sling swivels on it, unless they werenít on the original stock. I believe these were designed to be shot from horseback single handed, with the oversized cheekpiece helping to stabilize it.

  Hungry Horse