Author Topic: a new dagger and sword finished  (Read 2228 times)

Offline WH1

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a new dagger and sword finished
« on: January 27, 2019, 06:06:23 PM »


Dagger with 9 inch blade, turned horn handle, iron guard, bolster and end cap based upon a dagger in Neumann's swords & Blades of the American Revolution, the one in the book has a spiral turned horn handle which is reversed with no end cap.  Also my interpretation of a colonial hanger sword with 1 3/8 x 20 1/2 inch blade, iron guard, end cap with silver disc and elk horn handle.  This is the second sword I have completed.  They are a challenge but interesting, working on a fullering tool for the next one.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:36:41 PM by WH1 »

Offline aaronc

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 06:47:58 PM »
That is some nice work.
- Aaron C
At the work bench.

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 07:28:16 PM »
 :o :o... great work, Todd,.... the profile of that sword blade is fantastic,... your work just gets better & better,.... !!!! ..... regards,... CCF,..

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2019, 09:04:26 PM »
Both sword & dagger are a joy to behold - great workmanship and style 8) - thanks for posting ;)
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2019, 09:20:06 PM »
Very nice!

Offline LRB

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2019, 09:51:57 PM »
Really very nicely done. Kind of like a hunting sword.

Offline Greg Pennell

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2019, 11:07:37 PM »
Very nice work...they just keep getting better and better!

Greg
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Offline Nordnecker

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 03:42:25 PM »
Yessir, nice stuff there.
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 05:54:19 PM »
Nothing wrong with the quality of your craftsmanship, to be sure. I'm not sure exactly what you are going for design-wise, though: If you are putting a modern/personal twist on historical designs, there isn't much I have to offer. If you are trying for blades that could be dropped in among a collection of originals and not stand out as modern apart from the lack of age, there are a couple things that could stand some attention in that respect, if you are interested in hearing them.

Most folks posting knives here are more interested in "old-timey-ness" rather than strict historical accuracy when it comes to knives (in contrast to most other things, interestingly), so I don't want to give a "HC/PC" lecture if it isn't welcome.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline WH1

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 08:37:20 PM »
Nothing wrong with the quality of your craftsmanship, to be sure. I'm not sure exactly what you are going for design-wise, though: If you are putting a modern/personal twist on historical designs, there isn't much I have to offer. If you are trying for blades that could be dropped in among a collection of originals and not stand out as modern apart from the lack of age, there are a couple things that could stand some attention in that respect, if you are interested in hearing them.

Most folks posting knives here are more interested in "old-timey-ness" rather than strict historical accuracy when it comes to knives (in contrast to most other things, interestingly), so I don't want to give a "HC/PC" lecture if it isn't welcome.

Any input is welcome, always interested in honest feedback and no worries I have a thick skin. 

Offline Elnathan

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 04:09:50 AM »
Okay. The first big thing with the sword is that the blade appears to curve down. Your first sword had the same issue, I think. I suppose that could be a camera issue, but the dagger doesn't seem to show any distortion, so I assume that it really does have a bit of reverse curvature. I suspect that you might be forging these with a fairly stout spine and edges close to finished thickness, and quenching horizontally - I'm told the difference in cooling speeds between the spine and edge when the blade has a pronounced triangular cross-section and is quenched edge first can give that kind of warpage. Early medieval/Dark Age seaxes, which had very triangular cross sections, occasionally show this - the Battersea Seax is an example, I think - but 18th century European blades don't show that. If I'm right, quenching point down, which I believe is the favored method among swordsmiths these days, might solve the problem.

The second issue is that a straight blade would be more typically found with a spear point. You do see swords made with points in which the edge curves up to meet the spine, but a quick look through Neumann seems to show that they are all on curved blades. Even on curved blades, the majority seem to have a spear point or a kind of drop-point, in which the edge curves up and the spine curves down about 1/3 of the way. I think that a straight blade with an upswept tip would more likely be found in the Napoleonic era, when influence from Eastern European sabers started altering sword design considerably. In contrast, that fairly blunt spear-point, with little or no false edge, that you see so often in Neumann seems to be a distinctively 18th century feature, and if I were designing the blade I'd prefer to use that.

In regard to the hilt, I might want to extend that top quillon a bit and perhaps put a curl on the tip in emulation of how professionally made hilts were made, but that is personal preference. It is very nice overall.

As for the dagger, the blade is very nice, though longer than what I suspect was typical for a dagger of that period (though not necessarily too big).  The hilt has a couple features that make it look a bit modern to me, though. That square section in the middle doesn't seem to transition smoothly to the quillons, and combined with the straight quillons and tight angle at the tips where they curve inward, it really doesn't seem to fit the typical 18th century aesthetic sensibility. 18th century guards, even really crude ones, always seem to have a bit of curve in them in an effort to put some grace into them. The majority seem to have an S-curve, as a matter of fact, with one quillon curving towards the blade and the other towards the knuckles -the idea of an asymmetrical guard on a symmetrical blade bothers me, but they seem to have liked the look. Also, the ferrule on the grip looks to me like it was turned from solid steel on a lathe instead of formed from sheet and brazed or soldered, and seems a bit fancy for even a nice backwoods-made knife. Finally, the grip would look better and more authentic if the lands (to use rifling terminology) were rounded over instead of just having a spiral groove running around it. That is easier said than done, I know. Those are all small things, but taken altogether they do make the handle look modern to my eyes.

I strongly recommend Gordon Minnis' American Primitive Knives if you are interested in daggers, BTW. He lays out a chronological framework of how they changed over the years, from the 18th century up to the American Civil War, and once you get a handle on what to look for, you begin spotting a bunch of probable-19th century pieces labelled as 18th century in Neumann and Grant. Minnis' book is out of print and pretty pricy on the used market, but I've managed to get it through interlibrary loan a couple times, so it is available that way.

Anyway, those are the things that I noticed. Kudos for making swords, BTW - they are rather overlooked these days. Gotta be a ton of work to make even a short, simple one. I'd like to make one myself, but I don't have the facilities to heat treat a blade longer than about 7", so I have to wait until I can acquire a blade to work with.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline WH1

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 04:43:13 AM »
Okay. The first big thing with the sword is that the blade appears to curve down. Your first sword had the same issue, I think. I suppose that could be a camera issue, but the dagger doesn't seem to show any distortion, so I assume that it really does have a bit of reverse curvature. I suspect that you might be forging these with a fairly stout spine and edges close to finished thickness, and quenching horizontally - I'm told the difference in cooling speeds between the spine and edge when the blade has a pronounced triangular cross-section and is quenched edge first can give that kind of warpage. Early medieval/Dark Age seaxes, which had very triangular cross sections, occasionally show this - the Battersea Seax is an example, I think - but 18th century European blades don't show that. If I'm right, quenching point down, which I believe is the favored method among swordsmiths these days, might solve the problem.

Actually I did quench point down, I think part of the issue is when I was normalizing and preparing to quench the blade I was drawing it back and forth through the fire to heat it and I suspect that the center being hotter than the ends caused the downward curve.

The second issue is that a straight blade would be more typically found with a spear point. You do see swords made with points in which the edge curves up to meet the spine, but a quick look through Neumann seems to show that they are all on curved blades. Even on curved blades, the majority seem to have a spear point or a kind of drop-point, in which the edge curves up and the spine curves down about 1/3 of the way. I think that a straight blade with an upswept tip would more likely be found in the Napoleonic era, when influence from Eastern European sabers started altering sword design considerably. In contrast, that fairly blunt spear-point, with little or no false edge, that you see so often in Neumann seems to be a distinctively 18th century feature, and if I were designing the blade I'd prefer to use that.
 
good point, sorry bad pun.  I will look through Neumann a lot closer and work on the profile of the point.

In regard to the hilt, I might want to extend that top quillon a bit and perhaps put a curl on the tip in emulation of how professionally made hilts were made, but that is personal preference. It is very nice overall.

I used Neumann's 81.S American Hanger circa 1755-1783 as my reference for the handle, guard and hilt although that one is in brass.

As for the dagger, the blade is very nice, though longer than what I suspect was typical for a dagger of that period (though not necessarily too big).  The hilt has a couple features that make it look a bit modern to me, though. That square section in the middle doesn't seem to transition smoothly to the quillons, and combined with the straight quillons and tight angle at the tips where they curve inward, it really doesn't seem to fit the typical 18th century aesthetic sensibility. 18th century guards, even really crude ones, always seem to have a bit of curve in them in an effort to put some grace into them. The majority seem to have an S-curve, as a matter of fact, with one quillon curving towards the blade and the other towards the knuckles -the idea of an asymmetrical guard on a symmetrical blade bothers me, but they seem to have liked the look. Also, the ferrule on the grip looks to me like it was turned from solid steel on a lathe instead of formed from sheet and brazed or soldered, and seems a bit fancy for even a nice backwoods-made knife. Finally, the grip would look better and more authentic if the lands (to use rifling terminology) were rounded over instead of just having a spiral groove running around it. That is easier said than done, I know. Those are all small things, but taken altogether they do make the handle look modern to my eyes.
I based the dagger on Neumann's 20.K Belt Dagger, the blade length and width are similar.  the ferrule is a piece of steel tubing as is the end cap with a piece of sheet soldered on and filed to round.  good note on the grip the original is a spiral grip and is much more tapered.  I appreciate the notes as I want to attempt to recreate this specific piece more accurately.  I am learning every time I work on a piece, part of what intrigues me about this.

I strongly recommend Gordon Minnis' American Primitive Knives if you are interested in daggers, BTW. He lays out a chronological framework of how they changed over the years, from the 18th century up to the American Civil War, and once you get a handle on what to look for, you begin spotting a bunch of probable-19th century pieces labelled as 18th century in Neumann and Grant. Minnis' book is out of print and pretty pricy on the used market, but I've managed to get it through interlibrary loan a couple times, so it is available that way.
I will keep my eyes open for a copy of Minnis' book.  Daggers are very interesting to me so it would be worth it to me to have a copy.

Anyway, those are the things that I noticed. Kudos for making swords, BTW - they are rather overlooked these days. Gotta be a ton of work to make even a short, simple one. I'd like to make one myself, but I don't have the facilities to heat treat a blade longer than about 7", so I have to wait until I can acquire a blade to work with.

thank you for the feedback I really do appreciate everyones input, that is the only way to keep getting better.
V/R
Todd

Offline will payne

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 02:42:18 AM »
Wow those are REALLY NICELY done 👍👍👍! :)
🕯
Will


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Offline walks with gun

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Re: a new dagger and sword finished
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 06:59:54 AM »
   Very nicely done, always interested in hunting or short swords of the period.