Author Topic: GOEX vs. Swiss  (Read 4004 times)

Offline Semisane

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GOEX vs. Swiss
« on: February 18, 2019, 03:34:23 AM »
I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected. 

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test,

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the forend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.



Here’s the shooting bench and range.




Here are the four targets.









Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.



And here’s a summary of the results.



You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load.  One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock. I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline LH

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 03:36:22 PM »
Good test design. 8) 8) 8)    I do my roundball load testing by glueing a one piece weaver style base about half way down the barrel and use a long eye relief pistol scope to eliminate sighting errors.  I shoot 10 shot groups off bags at 100yds mostly. If I'm doing a comparison and the first four or five shots are in a 8" group,  I will move on to the next combination. But if they are tight I will continue to 10 shots.  Its an interesting way to find good or better patch / ball / powder combinations.  I have seen big accuracy  variations between Goex and Swiss going both ways. Some barrels like Goex and Some like Swiss better.  I have found some combinations that were surprising too.  Like VERY accurate loads in a .36 and a  .40 caliber roundball gun loaded with FFg Swiss.   Lots of variables come into play,  like wiping frequency and technique.  Wind is always a problem.  Even a slight breeze will move roundballs at 100yds.  Its all fun though and a productive way of burning powder.  I only shoot offhand in competetions,  but I want to know that my loads are as good as possible.  Some may argue that it doesnt matter to have tip top accuracy off a rest for an offhand shooter,  but I dont subscribe to that notion.  I think just knowing can make a difference.   

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 05:44:54 PM »
A couple of problems with the test.

You used a known load to work with Goex and then used that same load for Swiss. Maybe Swiss didn't like 85gr with that gun and bullet. You should have worked up the best load for Swiss too.

Fouling.......... You can't tell by looking at patches. Swiss has a softer fouling and will allow easier loading when not swabbing.

Offline Semisane

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 06:48:19 PM »
Well you're right about that OMM. But I was mainly interested in seeing what velocities equal loads would produce. When I finished my intended test I thought about finishing up by backing the Swiss FFg loads down to match the velocities this bullet seems to like (in the 1250 fps range) to see what happened to group size. But I pretty much ran out of time and, quite frankly, my shoulder had about all of the heavy lead shooting it wanted for the day. 

You may also be right about the not swabbing issue. But that really doesn't concern me because I'm a swabber by nature - just can't help it.  8) 
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 07:20:05 PM »
Swiss is a great powder but it's losing its edge with today's prices. We have to ask ourselves if it's worth $10 lb more than Goex?

It all depends on your bank account.


Thanks for the testing and I can relate to your shoulder. I'm sure you noticed the sharper hit from Swiss compared to Goex.

Offline Percy

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 08:39:59 PM »
Your test results indicate that 2F Swiss compares pretty close to 3F Goex in both accuracy and velocity. It would be interesting to see how 75 grains of 3F Swiss compares to 85 grains of 3F Goex. Hopefully, when your shoulder recovers and you have some time you will do more testing.

Thanks for  sharing.

Percy

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 08:57:54 PM »
LH, i’d like to know more About your process of gluing the scope base to a barrel flat.  Glue used, removal, did you remove any finish from the barrel flat or scope base to get a secure hold, etc. ?
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

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Offline MuskratMike

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 09:26:46 PM »
Here we go again. If your wallet is deep or you shoot BPCR Shoot and develop a load for Swiss or O.E. If you shoot patched round ball or don't have a fairy godmother to buy your powder GOEX works just fine. I still win contests and kill game with it. Why change?
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Daryl

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2019, 09:36:55 PM »
Judging by the results alone, 2F GOEX shows the most promise as an accurate load, with 85gr. 2F Swiss being close and due to higher speed, potentially the better hunting load.

It is not at all a surprise to see 3F giving poorer accuracy across the board, with these slugs, when, due to the elevated velocity, 3F should have produced the best accuracy in this

slow for the bullet rifling twist.

One of my main concerns with this test, is the bullet used in the 30" twist. I am very certain your results would have showed better all-over accuracy with all powder charges with a lighter,

more appropriate bullet weight/length for the 30" rate of twist, in the 320gr. to 350gr. range. Your 460gr. bullet is much better suited to a 22" to likely no more than a 24" twist.

The other concern is while the bullets used, show round holes in the target, when the bullet is slightly too long for the rate of twist, it instantly becomes unstable upon impact with an

animal.  This instability when penetrating causes projectiles to divert from their line of presentation, thus may not hit the vitals intended. Shooting an animal with them & expecting to hit

the vitals then becomes a game of chance. Reducing the weight to what is appropriate for the rifling twist will make the use of slugs, almost as good as a round ball- in it's proper rate of twist.

Edited: - I would have expected better accuracy across the board, since a scope was used.  I would most certainly try a MUCH shorter bullet.  The #457122 "GOULD" mould by Lyman would

be the heaviest I would use. It should cast about 350gr.  I would likely be more inclined to contact NOE for a .452"(in pure lead) short 280gr. to 300gr. with a large wide grease groove,

and having a flat point, to use in that 30" twist.

With a shorter bullet and shot without wiping, I would expect better accuracy.

That noted, thankyou for doing this test and posting it.  The velocities are closer than I thought they would be.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:43:18 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline J Henry

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2019, 10:04:58 PM »
  Got to drive 270 miles (round trip) to get real powder,carries Goex,Schuetzen,Swiss.looking for performance over cost. What one is it???Read all the postings,leaning toward Goex.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2019, 10:17:41 PM »
  Got to drive 270 miles (round trip) to get real powder,carries Goex,Schuetzen,Swiss.looking for performance over cost. What one is it???Read all the postings,leaning toward Goex.

I wonder if you wouldn't save money by ordering powder online? Usually, local stores jack up the price of real BP. Plus, you have sales tax and gas for 270 miles.

Ever compare the two?

Offline Daryl

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2019, 10:26:02 PM »
  Got to drive 270 miles (round trip) to get real powder,carries Goex,Schuetzen,Swiss.looking for performance over cost. What one is it???Read all the postings,leaning toward Goex.

"Graffs"will mail it to your door.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline J Henry

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 02:10:56 AM »
  It is the perfect "reason" for a road trip. Never know what you will see/find along the way.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 06:17:17 AM »
Thanks for posting this test with the results. I 'm pretty much in agreement with Daryl.  BTW, I was chuckling when I read that the barrel was allowed to cool for 3 to 5 minutes between shots.   :)    Yesterday , my .54 barrel took about 3 to 5 seconds to get frosted after firing  :)   

Offline Semisane

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2019, 08:57:30 AM »
I was shooting in 72⁰ weather with 68% humidity.  ;D
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

rfd

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2019, 03:01:55 PM »
as long as i can afford it, i'll only use swiss in both 3f (flintlock) and 1-1/2f (bpcr) flavors.  my personal testing proves swiss is just plain better in both performance and fouling control than goex and other brands of black powder.  however, goex's premier olde eynsford is a very close second to swiss and is well worth considering.

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2019, 05:14:38 PM »
RFD, would be nice to see some of your test results.  Especially the fouling results as I am not sure how you test that.  I am getting low on powder and deciding what to buy.  Thanks.   :)


Dave
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rfd

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2019, 05:25:02 PM »
RFD, would be nice to see some of your test results.  Especially the fouling results as I am not sure how you test that.  I am getting low on powder and deciding what to buy.  Thanks.   :)

Dave

the best testing is done by you, with yer guns, yer accoutrements, and yer procedures.  the only reasonably empirical data is speed, where swiss beats them all.  but speed isn't a be-all end-all for me.  i'm more interested in consistent burns and fouling control.  do yer own comparison tests.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2019, 06:10:02 PM »
RFD, would be nice to see some of your test results.  Especially the fouling results as I am not sure how you test that.  I am getting low on powder and deciding what to buy.  Thanks.   :)


Dave

The easiest way to test fouling is to see how many shots you can get before you have to swab. Using a liquid patch lube shouldn't be used as it will let any powder shoot forever with no swabbing.
 Swiss uses a special process to make their charcoal and it leaves the fouling more moist than other powders. Swiss has a way to test that and their powder beat all others.

 Some think when they read that that Swiss is a clean burning powder. No, it's still black powder and is dirty compared to the substitute black powders. It's just a little cleaner than other real black powders.

 Olde Eynsford is also cleaner burning. I'm not sure how it compares to Swiss? It wasn't available when Swiss did it's fouling tests. I'm guessing they're pretty close to each other.

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2019, 08:30:09 PM »
Gotta remember if you are reading tests done by the manufacturer claiming their product is superior be suspicious. "Believe half of what you see and none of what your read".
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2019, 08:46:14 PM »
Especially, if it's Goex.

rfd

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2019, 09:26:32 PM »
over the decades, since the mid 50's, in my comparisons with Many other brands of commercial black powders swiss also has less dust and fines and there is no need for screening a new can of powder.  overall if find swiss the most consistent of black powders and clearly the most carefully created, with the better performance for long range 19th century s/s cartridge guns, and with the least fouling issues for any manner of gun, front or rear loader.  for me it is the only 1-1/2f powder for long range cartridges, period.  however, i could get by with lesser 3f black powder brands for my flintlocks, if need be ... but i can afford buying swiss in 25lb shipments so that's all i use.

Offline recurve

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Re: GOEX vs. Swiss
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 10:05:35 PM »





Same gun getz barrel .50 cal , patch ,lube (spit), ball,  yrds & sight picture,  top target goex bottom swiss both 2f 70grns (2inch higher with swiss)