Smoothbore pistol (Howdah) patterns???

[Skychief]

As an avid muzzleloading turkey hunter that just had surgery for a detached retina, I'm looking for anyone's experiences with smoothbore pistol patterns.

I may not be able to use my beloved fowler for turkey this late April and have given thought to buying a Pedersoli Howdah 20 gauge, or something similar.

Looking for real world experience with birdshot loads say from 10-15 yards.  We are allowed to use 7 1/2-4 shot here in Indiana.

Please let me know what you can regarding patterns, power, and loads suitable to coax a gobbler into the oven this Spring.

Best regards, Skychief

[Mauser06]

I want to do the same when I get a pistol finished.....



My thought was to use TSS shot.   In your case of go with 7.5s. 



Yes...it's harder than the barrel steel....noone knows if it's "safe" but if coming out of a cylinder bore, the TSS is extremely round and polished...I don't see it causing a problem. 


TSS is extremely heavy stuff....and hard...which allows you to use extremely small shot which will yield a better pattern...and it fly's very true for the same reasons. 



Might be something to look into.   Could by a box or 2 (the stuff isn't cheap) and gut them for the shot....there's a few sources to buy it by the pound but it's private people last I knew..

[msellers]

Here is what my brother got me to switch to, someone else on here posted this as well a while back. Is the cheapest we could find for small quantities. Out of the 28 gauge been shooting 60 gr FFF with 70 gr shot, sorry don't have any pistol experience with it.
https://www.rotometals.com/bismuth-shot/

[bob in the woods]

First you get the pistol, and then you need to pattern it.  Suggestions are fine ,but what works in mine might not work for you.   I use bismuth in my fowling gun, since lead isn't legal and steel would be a disaster [ I'm not a fan anyway, even in modern guns ]   For turkeys, even in a short barrel , I'd go with #6 rather than 7 1/2  .  My 20 bore prefers #4's
Brown paper shot cups help with patterning in my gun...you could try that

[Hungry Horse]

In my experience with smoothbore pistols, you are not going to get a very tight pattern out of a barrel that is pistol length. This is especially true of big bores like those on traditional houdahs. The twenty gauge might produce a reasonable pattern larger shot sizes. I think you will be wasting your time with shot sizes in the # 71/2 range, and maybe even #6 as well. I have no idea how it will behave with nonlead shot, since I have not tried it in my pistols. I have a twenty gauge smooth pistol, and a sixteen gauge as well. Both produce widely spread patterns at even close range. I built my son a miniature trade gun years ago with an old discarded.410 barrel, that busted clay bird consistently at thirty yards with number sixes in it. It’s barrel is sixteen inches long.

  Hungry Horse

[mtlonghunter]

I tried to hunt the birds with a 75 cal. Pistol with a 6 inch barrel. Used # 4 lead shot. 70 grains powder. There was not enough barrel length to develope any velocity. Hence no penetration, those turkeys just shook it off and walked on, from about 15 feet away. All that to say do a lot of trials before bothering to try the real thing.

[Daryl]

This is a smooth 24 bore that Taylor built, some time back.

[Skychief]

That's gorgeous Daryl.  Thank you all for the replies.  I'm taking it all in.

Best regards, Skychief.

[Pukka Bundook]

Skychief,

When your eye is good again, (it took mine a good bit to come right after I detached a retina) a shotgun would work a lot better, even a light single than a pistol.
I know how it is though, your mind always wanders to unchartered territory!  (trying something new!)

To get a pistol to Really work, you'd need a "screw on" choke abomination that no-one likes.....................or settle for very close shots.
I've played with my pistols a bit, but never seriously with shot.   just shot pest squirrels and such with shot.

I should pattern my 14 bore and see how it does.  I gather for turkeys you can't use a single ball, as I know smooth pistols would work with such, And practice.

[Daryl]

As an avid muzzleloading turkey hunter that just had surgery for a detached retina, I'm looking for anyone's experiences with smoothbore pistol patterns.

I may not be able to use my beloved fowler for turkey this late April and have given thought to buying a Pedersoli Howdah 20 gauge, or something similar.

Looking for real world experience with birdshot loads say from 10-15 yards.  We are allowed to use 7 1/2-4 shot here in Indiana.

Please let me know what you can regarding patterns, power, and loads suitable to coax a gobbler into the oven this Spring.

Best regards, Skychief

I was just thinking about the title to this thread.  I think you are asking about large bore pistols, rather than Howdah pistols. Perhaps this is a wrong assumption?

Howdah pistols of the percussion era were USUALLY side by side, ie: double barreled pistols of large bore, as far as I know. 12 bore would be most normal.  The name comes

from where they were used  -  in the Howdah, on an Elephant's back.  The Howdah pistol was for repelling tigers that jumped onto the elephant's back to kill either the mahout (elephant driver)

of the hunter in the Howdah.


This picture displays howdah's on the elephant's back, holding people who are tiger hunting.



Typical 12 bore  Howdah Pistol.
 

[Skychief]

Hello Pukka.  We can only use shot here (7 1/2-4).  Sorry to hear that you had a detachment as well friend!

I've taken a lot of my turkeys at about 12-15 yards with my fowling pieces and may have taken them closer if I'd waited a little longer.  So, yes, my mind has been wondering and wandering about how best to scratch my itch this Spring and still protect my vision!

It seems no one has really wrung out their smooth pistols for hunting patterns with birdshot.  I can understand why and that many view them as impractical for something like turkey hunting.  In my case though, I thought one may truly be the ticket.

I appreciate your thoughts and replies.  Take care!

Best regards, Skychief

[Skychief]

Daryl  you snuck is as I was replying to Pukka.

Yes  the Howdah has an interesting origin.  I'm inquiring about any smoothbore pistol  62 caliber or larger to meet our state requirements for turkey hunting.

I mentioned the Howdah as I knew some here have played a bit with Pedersoli' s version.

Thanks much friend, Skychief

[msellers]

Ok, so let me preface this by saying it is a totally hair brain scheme.  But in my crazy sometimes half witted mind things make sense as possible if not plausible. So hear me out and offer thoughts on it as well.

Since you are limited to shot only with a max of number 4, would it be possible or even legal for that matter. To use a heavy felt wad over the powder to act as a buffer like the sqush found in old lead shot cups for modern guns. With a shot cup of sorts, more of a capsule being formed and sealed to contain all the shot similar to a shotshell for pistols now days.  Thus containing and keeping the shot ammassed together untill it is a little ways out of the barrel, like a paper patch in BPCR shooting. Essentially creating a sabit of sorts for the shot until it is fired. We can document this being done with paper cartridges for buck and ball loads, so why wouldn't it work here as well.

Sorry for modern reference,  but was only way to articulate what I was trying to say without being able to draw a diagram.

Mike

[Hungry Horse]

I would be more inclined to try a paper cartridge loaded with #5’s and a cushion wad. Velocity will be a hard hurdle to overcome, I’m afraid.

 Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Big bird - very low velocity - poor penetration.  Get out the old steel corn or green pea cans and test for penetration.
Smooth bore pistol does not seem a good idea to me.  Now, 36cal or larger (no limit) single shot rifled pistol - different story if
YOU are good enough, I would say. I would suggest for body shots, .40 or larger, in a pistol.

[Skychief]

Power out of a pistol loaded with birdshot is a huge concern.  We can't use anything larger than #4 birdshot for turkey hunting here.  If it were allowed, I have several 32, 36, 40 caliber that would work great, but, Indiana doesn't allow it.

That said, I'm not convinced that a stiff birdshot load out of a pistol would not take a head/neck shot turkey at 10-15 yards.  That's just my feeling, based on no evidence at all.

I wish someone with  a smoothbore pistol would do a pattern and penetration test for my knowledge at these close ranges.  Not having much luck finding volunteers though to this point.

Best regards, Skychief.

[Pukka Bundook]

OK Skychief, I'll try my old 14 bore with shot and get back to you.

You Could always make up shot cups,................and melt wax in between the pellets!  It'd ride out there as a single projectile but wouldn't be, if you see what I mean.

Will get at some trials ASAP.

BTW, I had both lenses replaced , then detached a retina later, but recoil is no bother  these days.
Do you have to0look down at the ground most of the time?  I did whilst it healed up after surgery.

Maybe an original blunderbuss?.............I have one that needs a a bit of work.    :-)  That would really feel Primitive to let drive with!

[bob in the woods]

Re-reading this post, I'm thinking that you don't have the pistol as yet. In that case I believe the question should be in the direction of how long a barrel do you need in order to get a decent pattern with enough velocity to take a turkey.  I've seen 20 inch barrels do OK.  I'd bet a 16 or maybe even a 14 inch would do what you need .  I've seen some pistols with barrels that long and they're still pretty handy and shootable

[Skychief]

Pukka, thanks a bunch for testing your 14 and letting me in on the results!!!

Yes, my eye is filled with gas and I am doing the "nose straight down" regimen. Quite the delight, isn't it?

Remember, you'll receive extra points for any pattern photos posted.  If you happen to shoot a heavy can at 10-15 yards, will you let me know how said can comes out of the skirmish?

Thanks very much!


Bob, that sounds good to me.  Where are you seeing these long barrelled pistols?

Best regards, Skychief

[Smokey Plainsman]

Get a Harper’s Ferry, great guns:

[Skychief]

Thanks Smokey Plainsman.  I've been looking at these too.  They're a great looking gun with a lot of US history attached to them.  I wish they were a .62 or larger for my purposes.  Have you shot much birdshot out of it?  How'd she do?

Best regards, Skychief

[Skychief]

PS, is yours a Pedersoli?

[Pukka Bundook]

Well Skychief,

Initial trial, but first I lied to you.

My '14" seems to be a 16 bore now!  Shrunk a bit since I last looked at it!

Minus 18C so didn't mess with it too long, but at 10 yards, patterns don't seem to be a problem.
I tried 2 drams, or 55 grains of 2F & 3F.
The 3 F kicked more but shot better patterns for some reason.
Shot was # 5.  same volume as powder.

Tin can I fired at was a Heinz Baked Beans can.
The Only ones to penetrate the sides, were those that hit square on.  the rest glanced off.

I tried a shot at the base of the can, and None penetrated.
This is just to let you know what I found up to now.

The can wasn't against anything solid, just plastic/cardboard, so penetration Might have been better if against solid.

These photos must be the most uninteresting ever put up on this forum!

Pics below;

[Pukka Bundook]

I should have said above, that wads were just a single cardboard wad (punched from those waxed veg boxes from supermarket.
One wad over powder and one over shot.
As pictures show, I shot a bit high the first couple.

[Skychief]

On the contrary Pukka, these are the most interesting photos put up on the forum in some time!

At least, to me.

I can't thank you enough for this.  Maybe the only test of its kind to be documented anywhere on the web, as far as I can tell.

So at 10 yards, it looks to me like a turkey could be in some jeopardy with your loading. Is that your takeaway?

Sounds like you tried about a 3/4 ounce shotload if I recall correctly.

While the penetration was not devastating, I'm thinking it could break the skull or neck of a turkey at the range tested.

Please fire away with your impressions since shooting, regarding close range turkey hunting with such a rig as yours.  The good, bad, and ugly appreciated.

Even with my "good" eye wide open and nose pressed against this screen, I know I may not be taking in all your report and  photos might otherwise give me.

Many, many thank yous for posting this.

What say ye  others on the forum??

Thanks and best regards, Skychief.