Author Topic: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY  (Read 3675 times)

Offline Mike Lyons

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Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« on: March 24, 2019, 08:16:52 PM »
A WWII Veteran has been telling me about a rifle found in Ashland,Ky.  It was in an old bank behind the safe. When they removed the safe in the 70’s,  they found the rifle.  He brought it today and told me to take it home.  Anyone have any information on it?  I told him that I could post it on here and find out something. I can get as many pictures that you need. It has a signature on the barrel but you can’t make out anything due to the rust. I believe the nose cap is pewter and the inlay is brass and copper. The rear sights have been moved.  I can tear it down and take measurements if needed. 



























« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:24:17 PM by Afghanvet »

Offline msellers

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2019, 08:32:40 PM »
That is a beautiful rifle, definitely to be treasured. Thank you for sharing.
Mike

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2019, 08:51:36 PM »
It kinda looks Eastern Kentucky. Shelby Gallien (Tanselman)here on the forum can possibly help.
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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2019, 09:22:09 PM »
I don't have any clue who, what or when... but it certainly is an interesting rifle.

I, for one, sure would be interested to hear more about barrel measurements, bore size, etc.  I can easily see that rifle inspiring some interesting and handy replications.

Nice find:  thanks for sharing!

Offline hanshi

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2019, 10:56:09 PM »
Ah, the stories that old dude could tell.
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Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 01:41:18 AM »
It has a 15/16, 38” barrel.  The triggers appear to be Bob Rollers. ;D   It looks like the barrel was dovetailed for lugs at one time but it has some funky long metal thing with the pipes now.  The ramrod has a weird carved tip.  Here are some more pictures. It’s a small caliber. Maybe 32 or 36. 










Offline mountainman70

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 03:12:12 AM »
Look out,mike!!! Bet you cant collect just ONE !!! Nice find,sho nuff be good if he could talk. Ya never know when these old timers going to show up. Best regards, Dave 8) 8)

Offline Gun_Nut_73

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 03:20:01 AM »
Very nice find. 

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 03:39:08 AM »
Look out,mike!!! Bet you cant collect just ONE !!! Nice find,sho nuff be good if he could talk. Ya never know when these old timers going to show up. Best regards, Dave 8) 8)

You warned me Dave.  :o  I’m working on 3 and have 4 sitting in against the bench. I do have a helper.  Lol.






« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 03:59:54 AM by Afghanvet »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 05:00:09 AM »
This rifle has some oddities and, unless the barrel signature can be cleaned up and deciphered, may remain an unknown gun. There were many small, backwoods gunmakers in southeastern Kentucky and northern Tennessee [where details suggest this rifle was made] who were trained as gunsmiths and blacksmiths, but often did more farming, milling, carpentry, tinkering, etc. than gunmaking. The infrequency of viewing their work along with a lack of unique details make it almost impossible to identify unsigned rifles. Some of them never signed their rifles, perhaps due to being considered more a tool than family heirloom to families in the hill country. My thoughts on the rifle, based on its several more distinctive details, are as follow:

Overall, I think this rifle favors a Tennessee origin more than a Kentucky origin. The side facings are rather large with significant wood in front and behind the lock plate. Most Kentucky makers kept their side facings rather tight around the lock plate, while in Tennessee you see longer side facings. The cheekpiece is also longer than normal for a Kentucky gun, and the lock bolt washer is a form I have not seen on any KY gun before...an exaggerated comma or tear drop shaped washer. Most telling may be the guard's grip/finger rail that butts squarely into the back of the bow, rather than a lapped weld. This detail is not, to my knowledge, used on any southeastern KY rifles, but is used on a number of TN rifles. I have seen guards in this general shape/outline made in KY, even with the TN-style curl in the rear spur, but I've never seen a KY iron guard where the grip rail butts directly into the back of the bow.

The rear trigger is somewhat odd for a KY gun, swept back somewhat more like a shotgun trigger. That detail may also be odd for TN, but rare in KY. You do see in southeastern KY guns that are iron mounted, the rivet attaching the toe plate to the toe of the butt plate as on this rifle, but it is probably more common in TN. The short tang is also somewhat odd for a rifle from this hill country area...most use a longer tang, often with two screws, and at times a third small one in the tail of longer tangs.

The percussion side lug with its extended square shank is often seen in KY, but at times elsewhere, and probably indicates more a "southern rifle" than a specific KY or TN rifle. One other point is the barrel, which apparently was originally full-stocked due to the visible old barrel loop scar under the iron rib. Perhaps the gun was originally full-stocked, but hill country guns, due to the poverty in the general area, used recycled parts more frequently than guns made in more prosperous areas.

If it were my rifle, I would work on the eroded barrel signature, probably a little more aggressively than most people would advise, since identifying a few of the letters to possibly determine the gunsmith's name, or at least part of it, may be the only way left to tell where this rifle really came from.  Shelby Gallien





« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 03:37:24 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2019, 07:04:22 AM »
Thank you Shelby for all that information.  I’ll scrub the area where it looks like a letter and see what happens.  The rifle is falling apart.   There’s cracks all over the wood and tiny nails all over it holding it together.  The man who had it thought that it was cut off at the breech long ago.  I can’t see any rifling in the barrel.  I compared it to a 36 and a 32 barrel.  It’s closer to the 32.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 04:04:59 AM »
The location of the rear sight, closer to the breech than it should be, suggests the barrel has been shortened 5 or 6 inches at the breech.

About a year ago in a post on this site, a badly rusted/pitted English pistol was discussed, and someone posted a cleaner or chemical treatment to strip the surface rust without eating into the barrel or lock's surfaces. In the post, it was amazing to see how a rusted-over name was actually visible after the treatment. I do not recall the title of the post - perhaps another reader will - but it might be worth going back through old post from last year to see if you can find the one discussing the cleaning of a rusted pistol.  Shelby Gallien

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 03:56:55 PM »
Thank you Shelby for all that information.  I’ll scrub the area where it looks like a letter and see what happens.  The rifle is falling apart.   There’s cracks all over the wood and tiny nails all over it holding it together.  The man who had it thought that it was cut off at the breech long ago.  I can’t see any rifling in the barrel.  I compared it to a 36 and a 32 barrel.  It’s closer to the 32.

I would be careful scrubbing the metal. I would use something like a gray scotch bright and start lightly.
Coin collectors use a chemical to "raise" the dates on old coins you might check to see if a local coin shop Carrie's it. The ones I gave seen are in very small bottles.
Dennis
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 04:25:23 PM »
I searched for the thread Shelby mentioned but no luck.  I did see mention of making a scraper out of brass to remove rust on a barrel.  That shouldn't remove any iron.

Also, I have used Evapo-rust to remove rust and it will remove it down to bare metal.  Not sure if that's the out-come you want.

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 04:37:17 PM »
Lye is one method and feed grade molasses from the farm store is another mentioned here for rust removal.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52785.25
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 05:52:37 PM »
The product you are talking about is called Evaporust. It is sold at O’Reilly’s auto parts stores. There are two different types, one for general rust removal, and another that is a radiator flushing formulation. I don’t know anything about the radiator flush, but have used to regular formula. It works well but not really fast. It did not seem to etch the iron at all, just loosened the rust.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 08:00:58 PM »
I googled coin dates raised and there us a product made especially for raising dates on buffalo nickles. It was $4.95 via Amazon.com. Also saw on a coin forum where many use vinegar.
Dennis
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Offline bgf

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2019, 07:32:49 AM »
Before using any chemicals or abrasives on the signature, try a stick of chalk--just rub it on the interesting area and see what you get!  Even if you don't SEE anything, take a picture or two and post it--someone may be able to further refine the image and get usable information.

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2019, 10:09:00 AM »
I've used Naval Jelly in the past for rust removal. Works pretty good.
I just have to ask; Have you checked to see if that old rifle is loaded? Many were loaded then forgotten about over the years.
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Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2019, 03:22:01 PM »
Thanks everyone.  As soon as I can,  I’ll try the chalk and some light chemicals.   
I've used Naval Jelly in the past for rust removal. Works pretty good.
I just have to ask; Have you checked to see if that old rifle is loaded? Many were loaded then forgotten about over the years.
. The man that had it said that he pulled the ball years ago and that it was loaded when it was found.

Offline bama

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2019, 09:43:19 PM »
With the barrel being re-purposed from and earlier gun even if a signature could be found it is unlikely that he would have been the one to build this later rifle. It is an interesting rifle and reminds me of a rifle in my collection that is a later half stock built around an earlier barrel. The southern boys threw little away if it could still be used.
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Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2019, 10:09:36 PM »
With the barrel being re-purposed from and earlier gun even if a signature could be found it is unlikely that he would have been the one to build this later rifle. It is an interesting rifle and reminds me of a rifle in my collection that is a later half stock built around an earlier barrel. The southern boys threw little away if it could still be used.

The more I look at it, the more I think the rust is what I'm seeing and not a line.  With the barrel being cut approx. 5 inches at the breech, the place I am looking is probably not where a signature would have been.  I've used vinegar and naval jelly before on rust with good results but I don't want to use it on this old rifle.  If anyone wants anymore pictures, let me know.  I'll keep it for a couple more weeks but I'm going to take it back to the old fellow that gave it to me and tell him to keep it in his family. 

Offline JTR

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2019, 12:49:36 AM »
With the barrel being re-purposed from and earlier gun even if a signature could be found it is unlikely that he would have been the one to build this later rifle. It is an interesting rifle and reminds me of a rifle in my collection that is a later half stock built around an earlier barrel. The southern boys threw little away if it could still be used.

 I'll keep it for a couple more weeks but I'm going to take it back to the old fellow that gave it to me and tell him to keep it in his family.

Maybe you could sort of glue the cracked wood back together for him, to keep the old thing from falling apart.
Pretty much sure thing that if the barrel falls out of the stock, the rifle will end up a land fill....
John Robbins

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Old Rifle found in Ashland, KY
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2019, 03:43:54 AM »
I second what JTR said.  Dave 8) 8)