Two types of Swiss powder

[Skirmisher]

Thank you, both Bill and Daryl.  My personal experience with C&H was limited to one can which I presume was late production (This was around 1973).  I recall that it was gray in color and made extremely hard fouling, not at all like Swiss.   This has been a most informative thread.  I have never had much success with Swiss 3fg, even in small bores.  Swiss 2fg, on the other hand, has been superb in bores ranging from .33 to .46 caliber.  I have yet to try 1.5fg in a round ball rifle, but have used it in cartridge breechloaders.

[Daryl]

The reason I figure Swiss 1-1/2F to be faster than GOEX, is due to it's higher specific gravity.  A stricken measure (volume) of 2 F will contain a heavier charge weight of the Swiss powder as well as producing more energy in itself. An identical weight to weight test comparrison, I have not done.

[OldMtnMan]

I believe you'll find Swiss faster when everything is equal.

[Daryl]

Meaning 2F to 2F, or 1-1/2F Swiss to GOEX 2F?

[OldMtnMan]

Same size kernels. Same weight. Whatever F rating that takes.

It would be a good test. I think Swiss would still be faster.

[Mad Monk]

The Swiss is a true sporting powder it's chemical rate of burn where the grain burns from the surface inward until the grain is consumed.  The Swiss powder is able to produce a maximum gas temperature of about 2200 degrees.
A rifle type powder, such as GOEX, has a slower chemical rate of burn and is only able to produce a maximum gas temperature of around 1800 degrees.

When true musket type powders were produced until the end of the Civil War they burned even slower and cooler compared to a rifle burn rate powder.

There are differences in the properties of the respective charcoals used in each.  Generally the faster burning sporting powders use a higher amount of potassium nitrate and a reduced amount of charcoal.  That is playing with the volume of gas evolved and the temperature of that gas.  The sporting type powder based on 78 parts of potassium nitrate, versus 75 parts in rifle powders, with a lesser amount of charcoal produce a lower volume of gases but a good deal hotter.  With a sporting type powder in the bore, versus rifle or musket, you get a faster pressure rise and a faster pressure drop up the bore.

From the prospective of the 1800s powder maker you tailor this relationship between gas volume and gas temperature to best suit the weight (mass) of a projectile and how fast you can get that up the bore without getting into pressure that might well destroy the barrel.


Bill K.

[smylee grouch]

Hi Mad Monk. Will the use of Swiss sporting powder over GOEX rifle powder accelerate bore erosion with all other factors equal or isn,t there enough temp. involved to worry about that?

[Mad Monk]

Hi Mad Monk. Will the use of Swiss sporting powder over GOEX rifle powder accelerate bore erosion with all other factors equal or isn,t there enough temp. involved to worry about that?

The thing there is that you not get carried away with large charges of fine grain sizes.
When you look at the old original wrought iron barrels you saw what looked like bore erosion around where the projectile sat on the charge and for maybe an inch or two in front of it.  Part of that was the temperature of the sporting powder burn could reach a level that would cause a slow surface hardining of the bore.  Actually a form of case hardening.  A point would be reached in hardness where the firing of the gun would cause the bore walls to flex a bit.  That would then micro crack the film of hard steel on the surface of an otherwise dead soft wrought iron.  This process would continue until the bore needed freshing out, or the rear simply cut off and shorten the barrel or simply bore it out to the next larger caliber.  Our so-called modern barrels are more resistant to that form of erosion.

What you can watch there is for any patches of glass like fouling in the back of the bore.  Patches that take a lot of scrubbing with a wet or damp to remove.  That shows gas temperature had reached about 1600 degrees.  Get the temperature down and there would be less carbonization (case hardening) of the bore back at the powder charge area.

Bill k.

[smylee grouch]

Again thank you for the info.

[Dphariss]

Just got off the web looking for powder and saw that Swiss is making two different styles/types of black powder. One is ball powder and the other is the regular old style. Has any one shot the ball style and what are your thoughts on it if you have? Seems it would flow nicely from container to measure. Just a thought but it does cost a little more.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/1-5-f-swiss-caviar-ball-black-powder-quantity-discounts-will-be-applied-in-your-cart-once-you-order-a-total-of-10-pounds-or-more-of-any-black-powder-swiss1-5fcaviar

Dan

[yulzari]

Good to see you posting Bill.

[horsetrader]

Has anyone tested Goex  vs. Swiss by same volumes and then same charge weights? By volume I think Swiss would be faster but what about by weight?

[recurve]

Does anyone have  ballistics on  .50 patched round using swiss 2ff ,swiss 3ff ,Vs.  goex 2ff goex3ff?

[OldMtnMan]

I've seen tests posted on another forum. Swiss is about 200fps faster. Volume to volume.

[recurve]

Thank you

[OldMtnMan]

Here you go.

100 grns SwissFFF
1937 fps
1978 fps

100 grns GoexFFF
1681 fps
1729 fps

90 grns SwissFFF
1858 fps
1894 fps

90 grns GoexFFF
1571 fps
1636 fps
1666 fps

80 grns SwissFFF
1747 fps
1803 fps

80 grns GoexFFF
1490 fps
1531 fps

70 grns SwissFFF
1649 fps
1715 fps

70 grns GoexFFF
1412 fps
1443 fps

60 grns SwissFFF
1566 fps
1593 fps

60 grns GoexFFF
1270 fps
1361 fps

[OldMtnMan]

You may find this interesting. Look at the fps in the above list. First shot was a clean barrel. Second shot was done without swabbing.

Fouling increases pressure/speed.

[Daryl]

An identical weight to weight test should show the Swiss powder to be about 100fps faster, judging by this list.
A comparison of 2F would also be interesting.

[recurve]

"Herb" might be able to help he has done a lot of volume powder shooting ( goex vs swiss vs 2f 3f 11/2f) with his muzzle loaders

[Daryl]

tks recurve - I was looking for weight comparisons, not volume.  Swiss is more dense than GOEX, thus a given measure "throws" less GOEX than Swiss.
This means if using straight 'thrown' measures when switching to Swiss powders, the pound will not go as far, and the velocities will automatically be greater for
Swiss, regardless whether it is "stronger" than GOEX or just equal.
 I am wondering how close they are in velocities, when identical grain weight charges are compared.

[OldMtnMan]

Daryl.........Even if Swiss comes out 100fps more when weight for weight. Is that worth $10lb more money?

You don't swab between shots, so less fouling with Swiss won't matter.

[Herb]

Here is a quick partial answer.  I have weighed measured volumes of Goex, Swiss and Olde Eynsford, and there is a lot of difference.  Daryl commented correctly on this subject.  This is a test I did with a .50 antelope rifle I built.  Each charge was with a weight-corrected measure to hold 100 grains of that powder.  Shot at 50 yards from bench.  (On an IBM computer you can hold down Control and hit the + sign to enlarge the picture).  Swiss powder frequently shoots wide groups like this for me, just a matter of adjusting the charge for a more accurate load).

I was prepared for a 200 yard shot, but this buck walked up to within 30 feet of me.

[smylee grouch]

An actual test with both identical weighed and volume charges sounds like a plan and I think 5 shot or better yet 10 shot strings would be a more accurate test. Same gun,ball,patch,and lube. Should be an interesting test, hope my chrono still works.   

[OldMtnMan]

So, even weighing the powder and Swiss is still 200fps faster than Goex and 100fps faster than OE.

[horsetrader]

Thanks, Daryl that is what I was getting at in my post.