Author Topic: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached  (Read 5928 times)

Offline jteter

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« on: April 01, 2019, 09:41:21 PM »
This rifle has been in my friend's family for a few generations and he is looking to see if anyone knows much about it. He did have a relative named Henry Washington Harter who fought in the civil war in the South Carolina 3rd Calvary under Col. Charles Colcock in Company F, "St. Peter's Guard." He does not know if this rifle was his or used by him though. Please feel free to give any insight you may have on the rifle - the lock has "H.E. Leman, Lancaster PA' on it - it does appear to be a Leman rifle to me. Looks to be about a 36 Cal. barrel that is 43 and 1/4'' long. Barrel is pinned.
































































Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13167
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 09:48:26 PM »
Nope, not a Leman. It was built in KY or TN. The guys here will probably tell you exactly who built it.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 09:53:44 PM »
 :o :o :o... NOT LEMAN made,... East Tennessee made, most likely Unicoi County, using a Leman cap-lock,... has a "Holston Valley" style cheek-rest,.. Samuel Glover built similar style rifles,... look closely in front of rear sight for any initials or signature,.. what is barrel and overall length,...??? ... nice old rifle, in great shape,... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler,.... 

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 10:07:27 PM »
 ??? ??? ???... Another comment,...most likely this rifle wasn't used in the Civil War,... however,.. would be interesting to know what the seven notches carved into the bottom of the wrist, at the rear trigger-guard extension were for,... !!!... CCF

Offline jteter

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2019, 10:16:53 PM »
Thanks guys - will still gladly listen out for any further info - will check barrel for signature or initials but it is heavily browned at this point.

Offline wormey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 11:41:32 PM »
Listen to Fiddler, he knows.  This is a classic Tennessee style rifle and the owner is fortunate to have it.  Could have been used by some "Home Guard" or such, but has no military utility.  Fine, fine rifle though. Wormey

Online Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19344
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2019, 11:58:26 PM »
Thanks guys - will still gladly listen out for any further info - will check barrel for signature or initials but it is heavily browned at this point.

Please don't clean it to see any initials etc I agree with CCF its East TN.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline E.vonAschwege

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3118
    • von Aschwege Flintlocks
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2019, 12:02:49 AM »
however,.. would be interesting to know what the seven notches carved into the bottom of the wrist, at the rear trigger-guard extension were for,... !!!... CCF

Number of squirrels that met a fast demise one Sunday afternoon....

Yes definitely east Tennessee, great gun! 
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13167
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 01:06:48 AM »
however,.. would be interesting to know what the seven notches carved into the bottom of the wrist, at the rear trigger-guard extension were for,... !!!... CCF

Number of squirrels that met a fast demise one Sunday afternoon....

Yes definitely east Tennessee, great gun!
Naw, It's a tally of !@*%&@ yankees! ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline wildcatter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2019, 04:26:09 AM »
Awesome TN rifle! Thanks for posting, love seeing them!  SC 3rd was an interesting crew, all low country men. Interesting that they surrendered with a Tennessee regimen, maybe he got the rifle then?


Matt
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four.

Offline JamesT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2019, 06:43:58 AM »
Very nice. Thanks for posting these photos. Dandy rifle

Offline crankshaft

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2019, 04:10:08 PM »

 Lower thimble,   unusual?      :o

Online Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19344
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 04:25:54 PM »

 Lower thimble,   unusual?      :o

Not particularly, have seen that type on several east TN rifles.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 06:16:45 PM »
..... a close-up  of the rear thimble/entry pipe on a rifle in our "virtual library" signed " S*G", and believed to be by Samuel Glover,... He and the Gross family were known to use this feature,...


Offline jteter

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2019, 07:09:25 PM »
Yeah that entry  thimble is very similar

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5395
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2019, 10:52:04 PM »
 I recall reading a recollection of one of the heated Civil War battles, where Union forces had a bunch of Southern sharp shooters cornered. The Union troops were amazed at how far those rebs could shoot, and hit,  with a squirrel rifle. They said the little round balls were buzzing around them like bees. So, I don’t doubt that this rifle might have seen action.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Caprock

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2019, 03:48:55 AM »
Neophyte here.  Just wondering if one of the Beans didn't have something to do with this rifle?

Offline jteter

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2019, 04:39:47 PM »
Hey Cave Coves Fiddler - check out this Jonathan Gross rifle on Contemporary Makers at https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/10/jonathan-gross.html   

Tell me that rifle don't look way like this one. Appreciate your help man!

Offline crankshaft

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2019, 10:04:23 PM »

 Lower thimble,   unusual?      :o

Not particularly, have seen that type on several east TN rifles.
Dennis


Appears to be a lot of extra work, on a  rather plain rifle ?  ?

Offline Skirmisher

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2019, 11:29:50 PM »
In the collection of the Illinois Military Museum there is a fine Tennessee mountain rifle left on the field at Pea Ridge. Tennessee collected and then issued these civilian rifles for use by marksmen, and the ammo used were picket bullets, not round ball.  Picket balls have also been recovered from the Pea Ridge battlefield.

Offline JamesT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2019, 03:21:39 AM »
Skirmisher,
 Curious as to what you mean by a picket bullet? Something like a Minie or different?
James

Offline Hlbly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2019, 02:46:41 PM »
With a 1 in 48 twist there is no way I can imagine those rifles shooting anything but a round ball with any accuracy at all.

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2019, 04:36:11 PM »
Skirmisher,
 Curious as to what you mean by a picket bullet? Something like a Minie or different?
James

James , The picket bullet was invented about 1835. Picture a round ball with a dunce cap. It required a special bullet starter and ram rod to center the picket in the bore. If loaded correctly the picket was far superior in accuracy, range and killing power to the round ball.,,,,,Ed     
Ed Hamberg

Offline JamesT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2019, 07:06:26 PM »
Ah ok. Thank you for the explanation sir. Interesting

Offline bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: Need help identifying H.E. Leman rifle - pics attached
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2019, 07:54:42 PM »
I think that this rifle may have been made by a member the the GROSS family. I own the Alfred Gross rifle mentioned earlier in this post and after looking at it and the pictures of this rifle there are too many similarities to cause me to think other wise.

The entry thimble is of the same construction and is installed with the same method. Look at the pin holding the rear thimble and then the pin for the barrel lug on my rifle and then on this rifle. They are the same.






The location of the trigger guard screws and the shape of the guard are very similar.




The tang is very similar.




The but plate return is similar in length.

Curvature of the butt plate is similar.

 

The rear sight is similar




The biggest difference is the cheek piece. This could have been a customer specification or just of those days when you want to do something a little different.








Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"