Barrel length of John Alden’s ‘Mayflower’ wheellock?

[Flint62Smoothie]

I called the NRA, who has the original in their collection as made by Beretta in the 1550s, but they will not share any details about the length or dimensions.

So, all I can do is guesstimate the relationship (ratio) between the length of the lockplate and that of the barrel, then use that to scale it from the actual lockplate that I will be using. I actually got wheellock kit from The Rifle Shoppe delivered in < 2-weeks, which is a feat unto itself.

By eye, and by picture, what would you ‘guesstimate’ the barrel length to be? I’d say 28”, maybe going as long as 30”. Your thoughts? Oh, I will be building it as a 58-cal rifled carbine.





upload an image

[Telgan]

That's gonna be an awesome project - Hope you will bring us all along on the ride. Are other photos available?

[medbill]

Wow that is awesome! Recently found out my 8th grandfather I think was a nightwatchmen in Northern Manhattan in the late 1600's.  First thing I thought of when finding out he came over around that time was what kinda knife, sword, gun and powder horns could he or might he had.  They settled in Sleepy Hollow, NY and married into several now famous families from there.  Great stuff will be following this.

[Wolfeknives]

The book "Treasures of the NRA Firearms Museum shows two full length photos of the rifle, but no specifications. The only thing mentioned is that it appears to have been 50 cal. but the bore has been enlarged by wear, removing most of the rifling.

[John Archer]

What is the length of the lock plate?

John

[Cullen1780]

Looks to me like the barrel is 2 1/2 times as long as the LOP so I'll guess the barrel would be 30 - 33".

[Bill Raby]

Why wouldn't NRA museum give out info about it? I always thought the whole point of a museum was to preserve the knowledge. How are they supposed to do that if they won't give out any information?

[Daryl]

Appears to me, to be 30" to 32" in length - maybe even 33".

[Flint62Smoothie]

By presuming a 12" length of pull on the original (LOPs shorter back then) and using a ratio of proportions, I came up with a 30.8” barrel. A 12-1/2” LOP would give it a 32” barrel, so we're in the ballpark. I did not measure the length of the TRS wheellock lock plate before I left it with Brian Anderson. Our plan may be to scale it up to match whatever size the TRS lock plate is, if it is suitable, or we’ll make a new plate. Ideally I’d like the overall sense of scale to look identical. Thanks guys!

[ptk1126]

As a direct descendant of John Alden through his daughter Elizabeth, I hope you will post updates
on the progress of this project.

My own interest in a future project is to build an early flintlock rifle as would have been carried by
my ancestors during the Indian conflicts in the 1660-1690 period, but I have not been able
to find much info.

All the best
Paul

[rich pierce]

The book Flintlock Fowlers may be helpful. There are a few very early New England fowling pieces in there. But of course an English musket or fowling pieceof the period would be a good choice.

[Joe S]

My own interest in a future project is to build an early flintlock rifle as would have been carried by my ancestors during the Indian conflicts in the 1660-1690 period

I haver a similar project in the works. After doing a fair amount of research, I've settled on an English lock in a fishtail stock.

[Flint62Smoothie]

My own interest in a future project is to build an early flintlock rifle as would have been carried by
my ancestors during the Indian conflicts in the 1660-1690 period, but I have not been able
to find much info.

Paul - I’d look here, Benjamin Church’s company, 1675 - 1707:

http://www.snowshoemen.com/churchscompany

[ptk1126]

 Flint62Smoothie Thanks for the reference. I have visited that site before and had an ancestor (Samuel Packard) who served in Church's Company
during King Phillip's War. Another half dozen ancestors served in other companies.

I have also found at least a dozen more who fought in King William's War, of whom six were killed. Another ancestor was Richard Otis in Dover NH:
        "On Thursday, the 27th of June, 1689,  the dwelling-house of Richard Otis, was attacked by the Indians, and himself shot as he was rising up in bed, and his son Stephen and daughter Hannah were killed, the latter, then two years old, by dashing her head against the chamber stairs. The wife and infant child of three months, with others, twenty-nine in all, were carried captive to Canada, and sold to the French."       

I guess this explains my interest in the period.

The problem with my project is I don't like the club-butt style and want to use a true English flintlock, not a dog-lock. Perhaps an Oakes pattern of the
1680s.

All the best
Paul                                   

[Flint62Smoothie]

As a direct descendant of John Alden through his daughter Elizabeth, I hope you will post updates
on the progress of this project.

Well, my blacksmith & gunsmith (Brian Anderson, VT) contacted me that my John Alden replica ‘Mayflower’ wheellock is done and can be picked up in a week!

Due to the drop in the stock, typical for such old originals, and from calculations of what we best determined to be approximations of the actual measurements, we increased the drop a little bit and then had to make it work with the lock plate we used from The Rifle Shoppe. That I received the wheellock kit from TRS in only a week - !!!!!! - is a feat (and accomplishment) upon itself!

I had it made as 58-caliber rifle carbine of short(er) barrel, again going by barrel calculations the best we could. Full details to follow after I pick it up, hold it ... and of course - shoot it!

[smart dog]

As a direct descendant of John Alden through his daughter Elizabeth, I hope you will post updates
on the progress of this project.

My own interest in a future project is to build an early flintlock rifle as would have been carried by
my ancestors during the Indian conflicts in the 1660-1690 period, but I have not been able
to find much info.

All the best
Paul

Hi Paul,
Most would be flintlocks of some sort.  There may have been some older snaphaunces but type 1 and type 2 English locks likely were the most common.  The Jereh Bull blockhouse English lock is a classic example:



The Forbes fowler below is another good example:


dave

[smart dog]

As a direct descendant of John Alden through his daughter Elizabeth, I hope you will post updates
on the progress of this project.

Well, my blacksmith & gunsmith (Brian Anderson, VT) contacted me that my John Alden replica ‘Mayflower’ wheellock is done and can be picked up in a week!

Due to the drop in the stock, typical for such old originals, and from calculations of what we best determined to be approximations of the actual measurements, we increased the drop a little bit and then had to make it work with the lock plate we used from The Rifle Shoppe. That I received the wheellock kit from TRS in only a week - !!!!!! - is a feat (and accomplishment) upon itself!

I had it made as 58-caliber rifle carbine of short(er) barrel, again going by barrel calculations the best we could. Full details to follow after I pick it up, hold it ... and of course - shoot it!

Hi,
I saw and handled your wheellock before Brian handed it over to you.  It is a very nice gun.

dave 

[WKevinD]

My own interest in a future project is to build an early flintlock rifle as would have been carried by
my ancestors during the Indian conflicts in the 1660-1690 period, but I have not been able
to find much info.

All the best
Paul

Paul, not sure if your still following this thread but for ideas, here are a few that I have built using L. Day's English lock and an original built for the Sultan of Bantam (1650ish)

Kevin




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