Author Topic: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?  (Read 2192 times)

Offline Yung_flint

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Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« on: April 27, 2019, 02:46:26 PM »
So I'm new to the world of flintlocks, but not shooting or rifle care by any means. However anytime I take my flintlock or precussion guns out, come home and clean them, the next day I always have light rusting in the bore. My cleaning process is as follows:
-swab dirty bore a couple times with water-wet and a couple dry patches
-plug flash hole and fill bore with warm water
-let soak for a couple minutes, pour out water
-run clean patches through bore until they come out clean
-soak patch on isopropyl alcohol and run down bore, followed by 2 dry patches
-let bore sit while I clean lock parts
-run patch soaked in Slip 2000 gun oil ( cheating, but safe for black powder and great rust preventative on modern firearms)  followed by 2 dry patches to pick up extra oil.

So I feel like my cleaning process is acceptable and not anything weird, so I dont understand my consistent rust problems. I shot and cleaned yesterday, and I check this morning and I already have light surface rusting in the bore. Thanks for the help.

Offline alacran

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2019, 02:58:57 PM »
Don't know what slip 2000 is. But maybe you shouldn't be running two dry patches after you run the oil. Do that before you shoot the gun again.

Offline Frank

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2019, 03:05:20 PM »
After cleaning spray some WD40 down the barrel to get rid of any residual moisture followed by a patch of WD40. Done. Don't use any SLIP. Only use that on my modern guns.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2019, 04:40:20 PM »
Pour your dirty bore full of cold water, dump it after about twenty minutes, and repeat, run a few wet patches through the bore. Now run a couple of dry patches through the bore, it should be pretty clean. Now a little WD40 will displace the moisture, but I don’t rely on it for long term rust prevention, so I swab the bore with a patch soaked in BreakFree.

  Hungry Horse

ron w

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2019, 05:01:49 PM »
one of my buddies, a gunsmith,...the real kind that builds custom (edited by Moderator) modern guns,...relies on Break-Free for all his anti-rust treatment.  it is also his go to for after treatment of blueing jobs, as well.  WD-40 is not designed as a long term moister repellent, it is designed to repel moisture immediately upon application but will not stop rust from forming in long term conditions unless it re-applied frequently. the best deterrent is dry steel in a dry climate which of course is all but impossible to achieve.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 01:25:57 AM by rich pierce »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2019, 07:39:14 PM »
Quote
run patch soaked in Slip 2000 gun oil ( cheating, but safe for black powder and great rust preventative on modern firearms)  followed by 2 dry patches to pick up extra oil.

So I feel like my cleaning process is acceptable and not anything weird, so I don't understand my consistent rust problems. I shot and cleaned yesterday, and I check this morning and I already have light surface rusting in the bore. Thanks for the help.

Odd thing in your sentence - why is your bore rusting? sounds to me, you never get it clean - must not get it clean.

As noted, 2 patches after oiling is too much. Try only one- or none.  If you are wetting a patch with the oil and running it up and down a few times, then patching twice- you are removing your rust preventative.  I've never had a barrel rust in 1 day after cleaning and all I have every used for cleaning is the water bucket method and WD40- even when I lived on the coast.

My cleaning regime is in another thread, however I use WD40 as it is fairly dry here 50% humidity.  After cleaning - I get it clean! Really clean because the barrels come of and get the breech shoved into a container of water.  I use either a stainless bucket or Folgers 3lb. coffee can as it is plastic. Water is pumped into and out of the bore. They get CLEAN when you clean like that - cold water.
You don't need hot, don't need warm either, when cold tap water works. There is never ANY crusted fouling on my plugs, - that gets dissolved and flushed out of the bore. At Hefley Creek Rendezvous most years, the humidity runs between 6 and 9%. I find no difference in cleaning there, than cleaning at home. No difference in loading or point of impact, either.
The bore is cleaned with 1 patch - up and down, up and down drawing water into the bore, then flushing it out the vent of nipple seat. After that, it takes 4 to 5 patches to get it dry to where the last one is quite difficult to pull out - they are tight - doubled flannelette. My jags are sized so I can use doubled flannelette. It gets into the corners of the square rifling I prefer.  At that point, the barrel is not only clean, but bone dry- 4 or 5 patches used.  I have a Getz bl. with rounded rifling. I actually find it no easier to clean than square rifling - they all clean easily.
After the bore is dry - spray WD40 down the bore - copiously - that means a lot - until it runs out the nipple seat or vent. THEN that gets patched out- blasting the excess out the vent or nipple seat. That carries away ANY moisture than might be still in a nook or cranny at the breech.  A tight fitting fresh patches is run down and out, down and out, then the dried, inside and out barrel is wiped down with that wet WD40 patch, the gun reassembled and put away, muzzle down in the rack.  Any excess WD40 that might be in the barrel or breech, comes out the muzzle and is soaked up by the board the muzzle sits on in my lockup on the rack. NO rust the next day - no rust in 1 week, month or 5 years. I have never seen any nor felt any of the dried WD40 shellac people have spoken of here on this site. Perhaps storing the muzzle down prevents that.  Storing the muzzle down, also stops the vents from being plugged with oil.  I have never had to wipe out the bore before loading it next time, either.

The boys & girls here take their barrels off the stock for cleaning. It is what we've, (Taylor and I)taught them. Whether pinned or wedged on, the barrels come off for cleaning. Minor care is all that is needed, to prevent stock damage.

Yes - I know your ancestors likely did not do that - they also rusted the $#*! out of their barrels and had to have them "freshed" regularly if they shot much at all, which most did not.
Freshed, means to re-bore, if really bad, then re-rifle because their guns were badly neglected according to what we do today with ours.
Daryl

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ron w

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2019, 09:50:46 PM »
  yes, I'm quite sure that anyone of us that has a muzzleloader shoots it much more than the typical owner back in the day !.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2019, 11:08:00 PM »
Try cleaning the lock while the barrel is soaking with cold water in the bore.  After the patches come out clean and after the alcohol wipe, patch well with WD40 then use alcohol to get that out.  After drying, apply Barricade.  Barricade dries and doesn't make a mess and it won't matter if you wipe the bore or not when next you shoot.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2019, 11:31:31 PM »
one of my buddies, a gunsmith,...the real kind that builds custom guns from Military Mausers,...relies on Break-Free for all his anti-rust treatment.  it is also his go to for after treatment of blueing jobs, as well.  WD-40 is not designed as a long term moister repellent, it is designed to repel moisture immediately upon application but will not stop rust from forming in long term conditions unless it re-applied frequently. the best deterrent is dry steel in a dry climate which of course is all but impossible to achieve.
Interesting to note that you're not "real" unless you build modern guns using military rifles.... I guess I'll never be real.... :(
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 01:27:16 AM by rich pierce »
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Offline Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2019, 12:33:35 AM »
one of my buddies, a gunsmith,...the real kind that builds custom guns from Military Mausers,...relies on Break-Free for all his anti-rust treatment.  it is also his go to for after treatment of blueing jobs, as well.  WD-40 is not designed as a long term moister repellent, it is designed to repel moisture immediately upon application but will not stop rust from forming in long term conditions unless it re-applied frequently. the best deterrent is dry steel in a dry climate which of course is all but impossible to achieve.
Interesting to note that you're not "real" unless you build modern guns using military rifles..... I guess I'll never be real.... :(

Lots of “real gunsmiths” have “built” custom guns off classic military modern rifles.

All too many of them have utterly destroyed any sense of history or value from them as well.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 01:28:48 AM by rich pierce »

Offline Frank

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2019, 11:34:59 PM »
How does someone working on modern rifles have any relevance on an American Longriflle forum??
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 01:30:38 AM by rich pierce »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2019, 12:38:17 AM »
I’ll let you slide on the gunsmith statement, but call you on the statement regarding how much more we shoot our muzzleloader, than our ancestors. Are you kidding me? Those old boys killed their food, defended their land from predators two legged, and four legged. They Shot at matches, both official, and friendly after Sunday dinner ones, and even carried them to church.
 So you might occasionally shoot more shots in a row, than the old timers, but you didn’t shoot more.

  Hungry horse

ron w

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2019, 01:07:37 AM »
 yeah, I kind of posted that tongue in cheek. and figured I might get called out on it. I know what you are saying. still, when you consider the amounts of lead and powder a modern enthusiast goes through on a yearly basis, it seems to me that the people of years past wouldn't be able to afford  shooting that much, prices of course, being adjusted for time. there is a lot more expendable money around, now,, in modern times compared to then. people didn't waste it by spending an afternoon at the range shooting their favorite muzzle loader for enjoyment nearly as often as now. it would be nice to know just how much the average guy shot for enjoyment or practice, back then. I personally don't think it's nearly as much as you might think because money was a lot tighter then and people were generally more conservative.

Offline Ken Prather

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2019, 01:09:53 AM »
Most modern gunsmiths I know have little to no knowledge of blackpowder muzzleloading guns. They are clueless and probably happy to be that way. If I ever have need of help with my muzzleloaders, I take it to a muzzleloading gunsmith or muzzleloading gunmaker that knows what they are looking at.

what are mausers anyway?  :D sounds like dog breed.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2019, 01:18:06 AM »
I’m conferring with other moderators on which posts to toss or modify and what actions to take. I’ve sent 2 posts into the abyss.  This is a warning. Any more posts not about cleaning rifles or that insult persons or the sort of craftsmanship celebrated here, will earn YOU a vacation from ALR.

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ron w

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2019, 01:30:45 AM »
I've had just the opposite experience, of the gunsmiths I now well, all of them know muzzleloading as well as modern arms and build both on a regular basis. to my mind, you can't be called a "gunsmith" if you lack decent knowledge in one or the other area. in my career, I was a Journeyman Carpenter, that meant I had a working knowledge of all aspects of the craft, or I couldn't be called a "Journeyman". as mentioned earlier, the Trinidad school of Trades gunsmithing school, teaches both modern and muzzleloading craftsmanship to competence.....or you don't get a diploma.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2019, 03:37:15 AM »
Well, I guess in your world, Wallace Gusler, Brad Emig, Jon Laubach, Gary Brumfield, Clay Smith etc etc aren't "real" gunsmiths, even though they can build a rifle from scratch including forging and finishing locks and barrels, casting buttplates and trigger guards etc.   In the real world, these guys are true gunsmiths and I recognize them as such and applaud their dedication to keep the tradition going. I've missed a lot of other examples, but I do know that Chris Laubach is following in his Dad's footsteps as is Mike Miller. Eric Kettenburg once offered hand forged barrels and locks .   Modern arms "gunsmiths" have their place, but this isn't it....and , frankly, I'm just not interested.

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2019, 05:36:48 AM »
Back to  your rust problem Yung Flint. I am well versed in cleaning all types of firearms but the flintlocks and caplocks must be done a little different. First off I'm OCD about cleaning my flintlocks. Mine don't get clean in 5,10 or 15  minutes... it takes me as long as it takes to satisfy me. I've tried toothpicks in the touch hole and pouring water down the barrel, I've even tried one of those clamp on thingies and they work good part of the time but not all of the time.
I'm one of the few who remove the barrel. I built my rifles so I feel well qualified to remove the barrel. I remove the lock, then the tang bolt, then tap out 3 pins, what could be simpler? I pour clean cold water in a pail, then place the breech end of the rifle in the water being sure the touch hole is covered. I  use a plain jag on either the ramrod or a range rod. I wet a patch and place it over the bore, then I swab the barrel. You will notice each swab it pulls a little more water into the barrel, just keep swabbing until water is pumped out the end of the barrel. If you were watching you saw most of the fouling flushed from the lower 1/3 of the barrel.
At this point I usually change out the dirty water for clean. Now I keep swabbing until the patch is clean.
I wipe dry the outside of my barrel then turn it upside down to drain placing the bore on a folded paper towel. Now I go inside and  using hot tap water and a toothbrush I clean the lock. After cleaning I dry it with a paper towel, shake it dry, or blow it dry with an air gun depending on where I'm cleaning it. Now set it aside and let the heat finish drying it. Then spray it completely with WD-40.
The barrel is now dried with several dry patches. Then I spray WD-40 down the barrel so the liquid will seep into any crannies there might be, followed by a patch wet with WD-40, then the barrel is set aside while I finish the lock. I remove as much of the WD-40 as I can with either a paper towel or compressed air. Then oil the lock sparingly and replace the grease on the sear spring to sear, the mainspring to tumbler, and the frizzen spring.
Now I run a few dry patches down the bore  until they come out dry. Followed by a patch wet with plain gun oil. For  years I've used Remoil because I've got a lot of it and it works great. I  use paste wax to protect the outside metal parts so I apply and buff a thin coat before the barrel goes back in the stock.
The oil is left full strength but after a few days I turn the rifle over and let gravity help even it out.
You do this everytime and you will never have a rusted bore again.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 10:23:30 AM by Darkhorse »
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Offline Yung_flint

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2019, 07:05:22 AM »
Thank you boys for the assistance. I like the idea of not doing two dry patches after oiling. I'm re-cleaning the barrel as we speak, making sure the patches are fully clean before I oil the barrel.

Offline Strong Bear

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2019, 03:26:20 PM »
Darkhorse, question for you.  I don't disagree about taking the barrel out for cleaning being the best way to clean.  Do you have an SMR with a lollipop tang and if so how do you handle that??  I have one and bent the tang while cleaning and was lucky no real damage.  I have not taken it out since for fear of seriously damaging either the tang or the wood or both.  .  Any ideas welcome.


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Offline J.E. Moore

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2019, 03:46:13 PM »
May I ask what type of powder do you use or has been used in this rifle?, I have noticed that a caplock rifle that I've had since I was a youngen is real prone to a rusty bore and it's the only one out of the 4 muzzleloaders I own that's had pyrodex shot through it. It's like the stuff etches the bore.

Offline kudu

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2019, 04:58:15 PM »
JE MOORE HAS IT
What type of powder you burning Real Black Powder I Hope?

If you Burned a substitute IE. Pyrodex Your going to have trouble .

 If so you need to scrub the Bore- Scotch Bright,  0000 steel wool. as best as possible' maybe even some brake cleaner?

I mean clean it! Take the Breech Plug out put the barrel in a vise and plan on getting messy use a Range Rod
and the Brake cleaner and Scotch Bright and scrub the bore from breech end,  then repeat again and again and then use WD-40 and scrub. repeat repeat. with the WD-40.

 (polish the face of the Breech Plug) fine sand paper if its flat faced.

Then from this day forward use REAL BLACK POWDER /  Goex, Swiss etc.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2019, 05:10:08 PM »
Yung_Flint,

Welcome to ALR.  Lots of good info on cleaning given above.  I only have one comment to add, I would drop the alcohol from your cleaning regimen and use WD-40 instead.  If you are using 70% isopropyl alcohol, guess what the other 30% is.... water! 

BTW, aren't flintlocks great!

-Ron
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2019, 08:44:05 PM »
My cleaning regime, Taylor's and most of the guys we shoot with is almost exactly the same as Darkhorse's.
Has been for decades, however I don't change the water part way through unless when cleaning my smoothbore
 after shooting shot. Long gone are the days of horridly black water when cleaning a rifle. 
The bucket I use is a small 4 or 5 quart bucket and the water barely gets grayish after a 30 to 60 shot day.
WD 40 has worked for us as a rust preventative, likely due to the low humidity here - other products are not necessary
nor is repeated re-application of it needed.  The air/moisture quality control in my lockup room is fair I guess - 65F most of the year.
It is the same as all over the basement.  If I had to store the guns upstairs where there is a lot of temp, variation, I might have to
do something different. I don't so I don't.

SMR with long skinny, fragile tangs that run onto the comb, I would clean on the rifle. With a shorter lollipop tang, Taylor has
made a wooden plug that the tang sits in and the only pressure is on the breech-end of the barrel as the tang is inside
the plug.  It is placed on the barrel, then that is lowered into the water to sit on the bottom.  You need a taller container
of water.
A black PVC plastic pipe from the hardware store, with a cap screwed and/or glued onto one end, set on a woden frame, makes
a good cleaning vessel of water for cleaning your ML guns - all of them.
Daryl

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Persistent barrel rust problems. What am I doing wrong?
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2019, 09:32:23 PM »
I use a 1 gal. plastic ice cream bucket with a 3 inch or so piece of 2x4 lumber in the bottom that has a shallow 1 inch hoke drilled into it to hold the tang, about 3/4 full of water or what ever it takes to sub-merge the vent. Pump a wet patch through the bore and suck up and force out the plain water and you will get the best clean job. The forcing in and out of the water really dissolves the fouling with a jet like action. The idea about the pvc pipe for lolly-pop tangs sounds like a good one if you have that style.