Author Topic: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement  (Read 809 times)

Offline sonny

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Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« on: April 30, 2019, 12:48:34 AM »
 Hello, I just came back from the local rifle range an tried to find a pattern performance enhancement with differentwads an cups an over shot an over powder an fiber wad an such, but they all shot low, about 8 to 10 inches low. How can I get the pattern raised? bend barrel??? sonny

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 12:57:38 AM »
Were you aiming or pointing.  If you were sighting/aiming down a tapered barrel, you will always shoot low.  Do you know the fundamentals of wingshooting?  They apply to stationary targets too.
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Offline sonny

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 01:28:54 AM »
Well, I don't know if you can call it aiming, but I sure tried to even the front sight in the breech notch on the turkey target neck spot. I kind of got comfortable with the pointing an leveling thing up then let him have it!!!!.... I tried raising the front sight an imagining a spot on the front sight that would bring the darn thing up............sheesh! The target was 30 yards an I thought that maybe it needed to be reduced to 25 yards......Low!!!!.....I raised the powder amount a tried to lift it up with that......nawww! I tried less shot to see if that would do it, Naw....... I tried 1F, 2F, powders from 65 grains to 80.....seems to like 65 grains of 2F . If the barrel needs to be have an attitude adjustment, is the front bent up or down to help the point of impact with the pattern??...................sonny (The shotgun wizard!!!!.........ha ha ha )

Offline Daryl

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 07:50:43 AM »
Well, I don't know if you can call it aiming, but I sure tried to even the front sight in the breech notch on the turkey target neck spot. I kind of got comfortable with the pointing an leveling thing up then let him have it!!!!.... I tried raising the front sight an imagining a spot on the front sight that would bring the darn thing up............sheesh! The target was 30 yards an I thought that maybe it needed to be reduced to 25 yards......Low!!!!.....I raised the powder amount a tried to lift it up with that......nawww! I tried less shot to see if that would do it, Naw....... I tried 1F, 2F, powders from 65 grains to 80.....seems to like 65 grains of 2F . If the barrel needs to be have an attitude adjustment, is the front bent up or down to help the point of impact with the pattern??...................sonny (The shotgun wizard!!!!.........ha ha ha )

Dave's right - your eye must be above the breech the correct amount. Looking/sighting down the barrel as if you were shooting a ball, is why it is shooting low with shot.

Some of the older guns have too much drop in the stock to shoot shot on the money when shouldered properly for a shot-gun, but they seem to do well with ball. To much drop puts your eye on the breech of the barrel at the juncture of the tang and barrel.
Have to learn to shoot with the neck straight and head up, giving the requisite amount of elevation to shoot on the bead. Bring the gun up to the face, not the face down on the comb. Shooting shot is not the same stance and hold as shooting balls.
Bending the UP will raise the impact.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 07:54:59 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Nhgrants

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 02:32:52 PM »
I am no expert but what I have been doing is when "aiming" the front sight is aligned with the tang screw for left and right.  At the same time I try to keep my line of sight above the breach
and for consistency I practiced having the eye level at a certain elevation above the breach say below the flint at full cock (as an example).  I guess another way to say this is to
keep the same stock weld.  Then if your hitting low, aim a little higher.
To me shooting a turkey is more like rifle shooting as I am aiming at the target  that is basically stationary.

I am not a expert duck hunter either though I do get a few ducks. With wing shooting, I feel its more instinctive and the sights/beads are not used. 
There is no time to use the sights.  The shot gun is just pointed so the fit of the stock to the person is very important. With my duck gun, the stock fit is not perfect. From patterning it I know I need to hold a little high and to the right.
 
 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 03:47:27 PM »
If you ever want to hit anything you're going to have to bend the barrel. It is  normal for a tapered barrel to shoot low with out a  rear sight. The larger the breech and the smaller the muzzle the lower it will shoot.
 That's what sighted swamped barrels are all about. ideally you put the front and rear sights on the barrel where it is the same size for both sights, front and back..
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Online Pukka Bundook

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2019, 04:14:57 PM »
Mike,

Maybe coffee time, but a gun with a heavy breech and light muzzle has built -in elevation.  :-)

Still, with a shotgun,  look Over the breech, keeping the head upright if the cast allows this, and use the front sight if you wish, or just look at the target and forget the barrel altogether.  If this still produces low centre of pattern, then yes, bend the barrel a bit.  My 44 " 16 bore needed an upward bend to work well.

Offline kudu

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2019, 09:18:45 PM »
I have to also say bend the barrel.

Just got done doing it on a fowler i made shot a patched ball 1 foot low- slight BOW to the barrel and she's fixed.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2019, 04:17:55 AM »
It is  normal for a tapered barrel to shoot low with out a  rear sight. The larger the breech and the smaller the muzzle the lower it will shoot.

Rethink that statement Mike.
I agree with bending the barrel.
Daryl

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Offline Brokennock

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2019, 07:59:11 AM »
So? When you've bent the barrel too far, or didn't bend it straight up or down and now you've ruined your left to right p.o.a./p.o.i.? How do you fix it?

Why not lightly file/stone the edge of the muzzle the way double guns are regulated? I believe, but don't remember exactly, you take a tiny bit off the bottom edge to shoot higher. There has been a topic or 3 on the m.l.f. about it. Mostly it seems that the amount of material removed to make a difference in p.o.i. is too small to be cosmetically abhorrent.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2019, 03:08:01 PM »
To raise the point of impact when shooting a rifle, you raise the rear sight, or lower the front sight.  If you sight along the barrel when shooting a smoothbore , even with the tapered barrel , many will still shoot low. Try not pushing you head down on the stock, with a comfortable mount/ cheek position ....you can imagine a rear sight being present if you like when first doing this, but I shape my stock to the point that the gun comes up naturally to this position. Patterns , and round balls are on target 35 yards , which is my normal max. when hunting

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2019, 03:45:02 PM »
Barrel bending is easy enough that even I can do it.   Lol


A nice crotch of a tree works well....I put the breech in and pulled the muzzle the way I needed it to go. Put it back in and fire and see what happened.  Bend again as needed.  I needed to go right and up.  Instead of trying to guess on the angle to bend it 1 time, I bent it to the right and then bent it up. 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 03:48:46 PM »
So? When you've bent the barrel too far, or didn't bend it straight up or down and now you've ruined your left to right p.o.a./p.o.i.? How do you fix it?

Why not lightly file/stone the edge of the muzzle the way double guns are regulated? I believe, but don't remember exactly, you take a tiny bit off the bottom edge to shoot higher. There has been a topic or 3 on the m.l.f. about it. Mostly it seems that the amount of material removed to make a difference in p.o.i. is too small to be cosmetically abhorrent.
I suggest you do what ever you think is right, but I'll keep bending because it's incredibly easy. It's nearly impossible to screw up.
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Offline sonny

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2019, 04:00:28 PM »
Hummm, it is a 16 gauge, has no choke. I will try just raising my head on the stock before I use the blunt force trama method. She seems to like 65 grains of 2f, 1 1/4 ox #5, ox yoke feltwads an my homemade index card shot cup . 65 grains should tickle their gizzard..

Offline kudu

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 05:11:42 PM »
I bent Mine

I put mine in wooded VEE blocks on the mill put indicators on it and used the Knee  against a wood block on the quill to flex the the barrel added a very small amount of heat ( I have lugs and a front sight soldered on) till it stayed bent worked like a charm only had to do it Twice.

I have a good size mill "Excello" like a bridgeport but the head is built well stays in TRAM better than a Bridgeport. I checked it afterwards and it barley moved.

Online Pukka Bundook

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 05:13:12 PM »
Mauser,
I had never even thought of putting the breech end in the crotch of a tree!  Always the end I wanted to bend.

Filing the muzzle would only add more problems that it's worth I'd say, Brokennock.
Bending is easy, If it's required.


Offline Daryl

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2019, 08:34:25 PM »
So? When you've bent the barrel too far, or didn't bend it straight up or down and now you've ruined your left to right p.o.a./p.o.i.? How do you fix it?

Why not lightly file/stone the edge of the muzzle the way double guns are regulated? I believe, but don't remember exactly, you take a tiny bit off the bottom edge to shoot higher. There has been a topic or 3 on the m.l.f. about it. Mostly it seems that the amount of material removed to make a difference in p.o.i. is too small to be cosmetically abhorrent.

Colt used this method to try to get their double rifles shooting the balls close together without crossing.
With a single barrel, bending is easily done. A large fir tree would work well, with it's thick spongy bark.
I watched Taylor bending the barrel of a bess to get it to shoot straight - worked a peach, after about 3 initial attempts
that did not bend it. The 4th was the one that worked.
If you bend it the wrong way or too much, simply fix your error.
This is another way. Have a look at the up-bending of the bench as well.
This did not change the barrel - it needed more.


Daryl

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2019, 11:07:18 PM »
Hummm, it is a 16 gauge, has no choke. I will try just raising my head on the stock before I use the blunt force trama method. She seems to like 65 grains of 2f, 1 1/4 ox #5, ox yoke feltwads an my homemade index card shot cup . 65 grains should tickle their gizzard..
You're ignoring good information here, all these guys wouldn't be telling you to bend your barrel if it didn't work. I doesn't matter where you put your head, it's still going to be shooting where it is now.
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Offline Semisane

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2019, 01:00:35 AM »
Yep. A couple of pieces of wood and a C-clamp.

My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2019, 04:10:32 PM »
Or two blocks of wood and just step on it. That's the way I do it these days.
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Offline sonny

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2019, 05:53:52 AM »
Hummmm, I'm kinda scared to bend the barrel, sooooo Before I convince myself to do it, when you are shooting round ball with the smoothies, do you try to get the fowler to shoot dead on at 50 yards. I sure don't want to bend the barrel all to heck an then find that she shoots a foot high at 50 yards......sonny

Offline Daryl

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2019, 08:50:09 AM »
Bend the barrel, to sight it in for round ball, with a flat, level sight. When shooting birds your eye will/should be above

the breech which should make the gun shoot on with shot as well. Rifles and guns firing 1 solid ball are aimed. Shotguns

are pointed. I use the paint-brush method 0of shooting flying. That is passing the bird the appropriate amount and slapping

the trigger at the right time.

Personal and mechanical lag form the time you told your finger to slap the trigger, gives good results.  Of course, practice helps.

Daryl

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2019, 03:11:38 PM »
Hummmm, I'm kinda scared to bend the barrel, sooooo Before I convince myself to do it, when you are shooting round ball with the smoothies, do you try to get the fowler to shoot dead on at 50 yards. I sure don't want to bend the barrel all to heck an then find that she shoots a foot high at 50 yards......sonny
If you  bend it too far, bend it back down. It ain't rocket science. I have an original French trade gun form the 1740's. It has several bends in it to get it to shoot "just right". ;D
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Online Pukka Bundook

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Re: Raising the POI on a smoothbore for shotpattern placement
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2019, 04:19:34 PM »
With a shotgun, the heavier the charge, normally the lower it'll shoot.
Brit guns are usually set up to shoot pattern centre about 4 " high at 40 yards, as most (flushed) shots are rising.

I remember reading an account of American Natives bending the barrels on new trade guns, to get them shooting where they wanted.  Crotch of a tree style.