Author Topic: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout  (Read 1237 times)

Offline Tanselman

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Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« on: May 09, 2019, 11:19:57 PM »
I recently picked up a screw tip horn that, until I examined it closely, I didn't realize had a repair to the spout because it was done so well. I thought the horn might be of interest to see how a beginning-to-split spout was repaired back during its period of use. At first, the larger diameter ring on the spout end appears to be part of the carved spout tip, but when inspected more closely, it is a hand-wrought iron ring that was slid down over the integral section of the spout to prevent a slight split from opening up. It's done a very good job over the years, since the crack is still very tight with no visible opening to it. If you look very closely at the bottom picture with the tip removed, you can see the crack on either side of the integral section of spout as very fine dark lines...very tight, so hard to see. Shelby Gallien





« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 04:44:19 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2019, 12:04:44 AM »
 Is that by any chance a Two piece tip, a collar that is threaded and fit over the horn. The iron ring looks like it was fitted over the horn itself, then the collar put on. It looks like both the collar and the tip are cracked. Not sure how the Iron ring would have been fit over the collar.
 Neat horn, like to see it in hand, looks like maybe a Virginia horn, based on the shape of tip/collar, the shape of the butt and the use of a staple.

  Tim
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 12:08:22 AM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2019, 04:42:26 AM »
Tim, your hunch was correct. The spout is made in two pieces with the lower piece threaded onto the horn...which I had not noticed before you mentioned it. However, the bottom ring below the iron ring is part of the lower threaded base piece, and the fine crack on either side of the base piece runs down into the bottom ring on either side...so the iron ring had to be forced down over the couple of smaller rings just above it to hold the base section together.

I'm not an expert on horns unless they have big eagles carved on them, so any thoughts on where this horn was probably made, and approximately when, is welcomed...such as your comment about it possibly being from VA.  Shelby Gallien

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2019, 10:49:39 AM »
 I've been thinking about this horn since I saw it, I am going to take a shot at making something similar, to get a better idea of how it is done. I'd sure like to see that one in person, maybe in Lexington in Aug. Could you post a Pic of it with the collar off?

  Thanks, Tim

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2019, 09:45:34 PM »
PS: Do you have any history on it? Also, does a magnet stick to that band?

  Tim
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 09:49:48 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2019, 01:44:21 AM »
Tim, there is no history on the horn, just picked up by an antique dealer who didn't know anything about horns and passed it along quickly. I was nervous about removing the lower portion of spout, but it came off ok. It has very old cloth, perhaps remnants of a patch, over the male threads to hold the lower section in place. I snapped a picture of the two sections and the horn's threaded end to accept them. Shelby


Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 03:41:54 AM »
Cool stuff. Thanks for posting
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2019, 04:41:17 AM »
I had a suspicion that our good Mr. Crosby might jump on recreating that one.  I look forward to the reproduction.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2019, 12:26:06 PM »
 That is really neat. Yes, the cloth is a repair so the collar will tighten up. Still not sure how that Iron band got put on there. You can get horn flexible but that looks like it would be an extreme flex/bend to get that pushed on there, I would think the collar would have broken. Great horn, what a find.

 Thanks, Tim
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 12:48:10 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2019, 06:26:33 PM »
 Did you by any chance try a magnet on it?

   Thanks, Tim

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 09:26:11 PM »
I do not know how hot you can heat horn without harming it, but having a ring just a few thousandths undersize, then heating it 200-400 deg will temporarily increase the diameter.  When it cools, it goes back to original size.
Of course, heating it red hot would make it even larger - but your horn might suffer a bit.
Really nice horn from an antiques shop!
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2019, 03:36:09 PM »
 Link to my take on the tip. Hope you don't mind Shelby.

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54434.0

   Tim

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 03:59:24 AM »
Don't  mind at all, but the repair band is iron as stated before.  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 03:29:03 AM by Tanselman »

Offline WElliott

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 05:58:19 PM »
Shelby, I have enjoyed seeing over the years the great finds you make in antique stores and flea markets. I seldom have found anything in “antique” stores that are as old as I am. 
Wayne Elliott

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 03:37:42 AM »
Wayne, I think the trick is to visit the crummiest, junkiest flea markets and antique stores, where a few dealers pile in the junk but once in a while get a good piece mixed in without knowing it. At times they are not knowledgeable enough to know what they have. I always figured the really junkie antique dealers often buy the last minute stuff at auctions, when they get the leftovers for a couple of dollars for full box...and then try to make whatever they can on the contents. If it makes you feel any better, my wife usually won't go to the flea markets I go to...too far beneath her level of comfort. Of course, I'm not looking for fancy China dishes.  Shelby

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 03:40:54 PM »
Shelby, is it possible that the ring is threaded and screwed on with the evidence smoothed off? I want to think it was heated fitted, just not heated enough to burn the horn.
Bob
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Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 11:42:53 PM »
Bob, there is no evidence of the ring being threaded, or any trace of it cutting into the horn surface in a thread-like manner just above its top edge. Of course, the ring doesn't come off so we can't examine its inner surface, so anything may be possible. If you look at the picture with the tip and base sections separated, you can see one of the several small flat spots on the surface of the bead ring above the iron ring...it's just below the center of the bead. I think it occurred when the ring was pressed over that bead to seat it on the slightly tapered lower section just below. There are a couple more small flat spots on the edge of that bead. I guess you could argue they are dents, but the beads out toward the tip don't show such flat spots, and I'd think they'd get bumped more easily than the bead just above the iron ring. The iron ring is just a neat detail on the horn, and one that's been fun to discuss.  Shelby Gallien

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2019, 08:30:14 AM »
Hi. TC here. Great topic. I’m
Wondering if the collar was actually
Split in two? That would allow the
Ring to be slipped on then Everything could be lined
Up and glued? The ring Would hold it
Together after that.
TC
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visit: www.thehuntingpouch.com

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2019, 02:36:41 PM »
Wayne, I think the trick is to visit the crummiest, junkiest flea markets and antique stores, where a few dealers pile in the junk but once in a while get a good piece mixed in without knowing it. At times they are not knowledgeable enough to know what they have. I always figured the really junkie antique dealers often buy the last minute stuff at auctions, when they get the leftovers for a couple of dollars for full box...and then try to make whatever they can on the contents. If it makes you feel any better, my wife usually won't go to the flea markets I go to...too far beneath her level of comfort. Of course, I'm not looking for fancy China dishes.  Shelby

 If you don't mind, what state did you find it in?

  Thanks, Tim

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2019, 08:15:55 PM »
Is it possible the ring was not a continuous ring before it was applied? Perhaps it was wrapped into place and carefully peened and filed to hide the overlapping connection... Decades of patina would also help hide such a thing.

Or...

The piece with the iron ring is actually two pieces pressed and glued together after the ring was in place.

Hard tellin' not knowin'

Mike

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2019, 11:39:06 PM »
There is no indication the horn collar ever actually split into two pieces, or that glue was ever applied in any manner to the crack...but perhaps time might hide any evidence.

We may be over-thinking this repair. The ring inner diameter isn't far off from the outer diameter of the bead above it, so my guess is that, with a little lubricant and perhaps softening the horn, it wasn't a big deal to force it over the above ring. Further, I think the lower bead, now gone and turned into a slightly tapered cylinder, had the critical dimension at its base, i.e. slightly wider than the iron ring, to seat the ring tightly and force the cracking sides together. If you look closely at the top of the iron ring, there are very slight gaps in some places, suggesting the horn surface below it was tapered, seating tightly at the bottom, but not so tightly at the top.

As to where I got it, if I said, it would taint the discussion about where it might have been made...and I'm not sure it was made in the state where the antique dealer sold it from...and he had no knowledge of where it originated from. I'd like to get unbiased opinions as to the most probable area/areas this horn may have come from. But then, I collect primarily out of the Midwest, and look harder for Kentucky items than any others. That could be a hint, or maybe not!

Tim, I admire your tenacity and willingness to experiment to determine how this repair was made. You have provided a learning experience for me and others  that's been enjoyable. Nice to find a neat horn once in a while that generates an interest in others.  Shelby Gallien

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2019, 06:12:33 AM »
Just a brief follow-up to the "repaired" screw tip horn I previously posted for comments. I sent the seller a request for any additional information he may have on where the horn was originally found. After a lengthy delay, I got a response from him. The horn came out of Pennsylvania. The seller recalled he got it from an old man at State College, PA. The  man's father had picked it up in a local yard sale many years before. Thought it might help to add this bit of background to the horn, for those of you who were wondering where it came from...like I was.  Shelby Gallien

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Neat Repair to Screw Tip Horn Spout
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2019, 02:16:06 PM »
Just a brief follow-up to the "repaired" screw tip horn I previously posted for comments. I sent the seller a request for any additional information he may have on where the horn was originally found. After a lengthy delay, I got a response from him. The horn came out of Pennsylvania. The seller recalled he got it from an old man at State College, PA. The  man's father had picked it up in a local yard sale many years before. Thought it might help to add this bit of background to the horn, for those of you who were wondering where it came from...like I was.  Shelby Gallien

 Thanks Shelby.

    Tim