Author Topic: Updates and observations on freshing rifling  (Read 2518 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« on: May 13, 2019, 09:12:14 PM »
I’ve been re-cutting or freshening the rifling on original and modern ML barrels for a while now and continue to learn what’s easy, what’s hard, and how to deal with what’s hard.

really small calibers are hard
My process is to make a hickory rod very close to bore size, file a square portion near one end, and cast a lead lap. Then I make and inlet cutters for land and groove on opposite sides of the cutter. Well, if we are starting work a .32 caliber we have a puny rod starting out and after filing a square and inletting the cutters it’s pretty weak. Calibers .36 to .40 are tough but easier. Anything .45!or greater is stout and no issue.

Forget about button rifled modern barrels. . These are so surface hardened that there’s no cutting them with simple cutters. So leave out TC’s, Lyman’s, Spanish and Italian hallow groove rifling.

if the rifling is not intact in the powder chamber all the way to the breech, it’s a long slog . Until you’ve examined originals it’s hard to imagine how bad some bores are shot out. One are 0.020” or more oversized ahead of the breechplug. This is why many original barrels were trimmed at both muzzle and breech when the rifling was recut. I resurrected one original barrel of my own and grew the bore over 0.025”.  Probably 30 hours and 2 rods and 5 laps poured.

they sure used narrow grooves back in the day. I see a lot of barrels from the percussion era with grooves under 0.075” wide. Interesting.

most percussion era barrels I’ve handled are “coned” at the muzzle. . I’m not sure how or why they did it but most run 0.010 to 0.015” oversized at the muzzle. This makes pouring a useful lap problematic. It will not go down the bore at all. In suc cases I file the lap to the diameter it is 2” into the barrel, oil it, pound it in a half inch, bring it out, carefully relieve it in grooves and lands using chisels, and repeat till I have a slug that will go all the way down the bore AND has good groove impressions.

On a rough bore I cut grooves deeper before touching the lands. . I feel that getting the grooves cleaned up is job #1 and I can then be sure that the groove cutter will track well.

a slightly rounded groove cutter tracks better in weak rifling. . Getting a square edged cutter to track in pitted, rusty grooves is quite challenging. A little radius on the edges helps.

Setting the cutter at a very slight angle helps. One would think you’d want the cutter perfectly parallel to the bore so all teeth are cutting. But if the end entering the barrel is 0.001” or 0.002” lower the cutter will slide into the groove and index well. We are relying on the existing grooves to guide the cutter, not a rifling bench. Once inserted the pressure will square the cutter up nicely.

Non-uniform tooth spacing on the cutter prevents chatter. I’ve seen several barrels that were freshed at least once, maybe 10,000 rounds before they ended up as they are now. They sometimes have chatter in the grooves and lands. To overcome or prevent this I file cutter teeth at a slight angle from 90 degrees from the bore and space them unevenly.

Once the groove cutter is cutting almost end to end, its time to cut lands simultaneously . Lead us soft and the lap the cutters are inlet into are compressible. To prevent problems while just cutting grooves, I inlet a piece of brass opposite the groove cutter, where the land cutter will eventually go. This rides nicely on the lands and allows the groove cutter to really cut and not compress.

Strategy for setting desired groove depth Obviously one needs to cut grooves and lands until all pits are gone and it is of uniform diameter end to end. But one may find the grooves are then deeper than desired. I then use a dummy brass piece where the groove cutter is inlet, to both track the groove and resist force from the opposite land cutter.

Land cutters radius. The land cutter needs to bd rounded on top and ideally at a radius slightly under bore diameter. I see barrels that were the-cut in their working life that had lands cut with square cutters. Not sure it matters but the rifling then looks polygonal rather than grooves in a round bore. Supposedly if the tops of the lands have a radius slightly under bore diameter, the edges of the lands grip better. May be imaginary but that’s what some old timers have told me. I take a drill that goes easily into the bore, drill a hole in a piece of steel, and line the land cutter’s rounded top edge with that. Eyeballing it is not in my skill set yet.

Deep teeth hold more shavings. I guess one could hand file shallow teeth but they will jam up with the shavings pretty quickly. So I leave plenty of depth and distance between cutter teeth. When cutting 0.015” in a groove 46” long, a lot of tiny shavings are produced.

Ok, that’s what’s fresh in my brain. If you have tricks of other approaches, please share or debate!  Done on phone with old eyes so some auto spell errors are expected.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 10:09:41 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Carl Young

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 09:29:37 PM »
Thank you for posting this Rich, a lot of great information to be gleaned from your experience. I have not tried freshing a barrel, as in the past I had a setup for (hand-powered) boring and rifling, so I just used an armorer's long-bit to ream out the rifling and re-rifled to a slightly larger size. Your method seems better in all aspects.

Thanks again,
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline 45-110

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 09:52:04 PM »
Good "meaty" tech info....I love it. I have done 2 barrels years ago and it was a royal pain trying to self teach and learn while fumbling along. Thanks for posting! Maybe next winter I will re-cut a barrel I have had for 45 yrs that never did shoot well. The rifling is perfect.........just super shallow, so the lead and cutter may not even follow the twist while making the first cut.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 12:17:22 AM »
 This is great info Rich. The kind of stuff that makes this forum worth a lot.  Just a suggestion. How about trying lining on some of the small stuff. That might not seem  HC but there were some shops back then with lathes.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2019, 12:29:13 AM »
Jerry, re-lining or drilling, boring, and re-cutting to a larger caliber is always the easier path. Barrels should be re-cut when the owner wants the original rifling configuration preserved or on a modern barrel, when wear or pitting is minimal and they don’t want caliber to grow much.
Andover, Vermont

Davemuzz

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 01:10:23 AM »
Bigger is always better......except when it comes to bikini's.  ;)

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 05:30:51 AM »
Jerry, re-lining or drilling, boring, and re-cutting to a larger caliber is always the easier path. Barrels should be re-cut when the owner wants the original rifling configuration preserved or on a modern barrel, when wear or pitting is minimal and they don’t want caliber to grow much.
   Right Rich. I understand. What you do might have been fairly common in colonial America but even than I don't think so.  It seems as though you are one of those guys who can't stand being ordinary. Your the kind that makes life interesting. Keep it up and please show us some more photos if time permits.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 03:37:37 PM »
Rich, I really enjoy your well-written discourses.  You're helping this old guy learn a lot of new things.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 04:41:43 PM »

   Right Rich.  It seems as though you are one of those guys who can't stand being ordinary. Your the kind that makes life interesting. Keep it up and please show us some more photos if time permits.

Ha, Jerry, that’s the nicest way of expressing it! One of my best friends says, “you’re a weirdo, all right, but your OUR weirdo!”
Andover, Vermont

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 08:32:45 PM »
Kindig states that freshening a barrel was the most common entry in Leonard Reedy's day book.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 09:08:11 PM by sqrldog »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 01:43:46 AM »
Bigger is always better......except when it comes to bikini's.  ;)

Agreed. :)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline JTR

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2019, 02:54:42 AM »
Nice write-up, thanks!
So, I wonder, if I attach a new section of antique smooth bore barrel, say about 12 inches long, to the end of a old original rifled 30 inch long barrel, can you rifle the new section by using the old original section as a rifling guide?
Bore sizes and alignment being compatible, of course.
Seriously.
John Robbins

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 06:15:51 AM »
Nice write-up, thanks!
So, I wonder, if I attach a new section of antique smooth bore barrel, say about 12 inches long, to the end of a old original rifled 30 inch long barrel, can you rifle the new section by using the old original section as a rifling guide?
Bore sizes and alignment being compatible, of course.
Seriously.

No, can’t think how that could work.  I have heard tell of one barrel being used as a guide to rifle another but some full-length index, internal or external, is required.
Andover, Vermont

Offline hudson

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 06:27:53 PM »
Tank you good information. Have rifled some barrels and have two waiting to be freshened. As one is a TC you have saves me a bunch of work. Will try lapping if that doesn’t work will bore/ream and rifle.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 04:37:24 AM »
Tank you good information. Have rifled some barrels and have two waiting to be freshened. As one is a TC you have saves me a bunch of work. Will try lapping if that doesn’t work will bore/ream and rifle.

Due to the depth of work hardening by the button, you might have to go fairly deep to get away from the work-hardened areas.

Drawing the temper & immersing in ashes overnight might help with that TC bl.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 01:39:33 PM »
Guys,

Some really good thoughts and experiences in this topic.  However, I really cannot imagine freshing a modern made barrel like a TC.  With the effort to fresh a barrel it would be a lot easier to just buy a new replacement barrel on Ebay.  Just my opinion.  Anyway, here are some photos of my freshing bench setup that is based on the original Fry brother freshing rods from the mid-19th c.

Jim

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49600.msg491550#msg491550

Offline t.caster

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 06:20:37 PM »
What you said about the smaller calibers being most difficult....
John Getz told me about 20+ years ago he was done making .32s because he waisted so much time & money on broken cutters and such.
Tom C.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 11:46:31 PM »
Bigger is always better......except when it comes to bikini's.  ;)

I'd not be so sure about that.

Depends on who is wearing it!   :o

Thanks Rich. Sounds like you'll be freshing up any that I need done.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2019, 03:11:10 AM »
Bigger is always better......except when it comes to bikini's.  ;)

I'd not be so sure about that.

Depends on who is wearing it!   :o

Thanks Rich. Sounds like you'll be freshing up any that I need done.

lLOL- just had a FLASH in my mind of someone REALLY large in a bikini. :o
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline msellers

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2019, 06:30:28 AM »
Rich and all,

I haven't shot the one I had freshed by Rich yet, as it is still in the early build stages. However, I wish i could have gotten decent before and after pictures of the bore. It was a frosted small pits everywhere almost like I had bead blasted it. Rich got it back shiny and sharp, no visible or felt chatter marks from his cutter. I would definitely have him rework one for me again on the next one I need done.

Thanks,
Mike

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Updates and observations on freshing rifling
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2019, 06:44:03 AM »
Jim, your approach is really cool. Interesting that your land and groove cutters are on the same side of the lead. Might be an advantage there. Really long leads too!  I bet that stabilizes the setup nicely. More than one way to skin a cat.
Andover, Vermont