Author Topic: Beeswax in patch lube  (Read 1654 times)

Offline MuskratMike

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Beeswax in patch lube
« on: May 24, 2019, 05:16:14 PM »
Please also read my additional post not far down this page. I left out some information on this post.
I have a friend who commercially makes bullet lube for cartridge black powder shooters. He is adamant that the approx. 1/3 of the mix is beeswax is just right for round ball patch lube. I have tried to explain to him why there should be little to no wax in your patch lube just enough to keep it from becoming too liquid. Please reply with valid reasons why I am right and please stick to the topic.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 10:23:22 PM by MuskratMike »
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2019, 05:21:06 PM »
Maybe you could explain why you believe that?
Pete

Offline thelongrifle

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2019, 05:41:54 PM »
I use 1 pound of beeswax with 2 pounds of sheep tallow. Works great winter or summer.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 06:08:02 PM »
Some guys like it and some don,t.  I think a persons results will depend on several factors like the individual bore,how tight of a combo, the other part of the lube combo, powder type and granulation, weather and climate conditions and probably a lot more.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 06:32:38 PM »
Exactly!
Daryl

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Offline David R.

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 06:52:30 PM »
I never could get consistent results with the wax. Straight tallow or oil gave more consistent results in my experience.
I would have no quarrel with thee if thou be a friend of liberty.

Offline Frank

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 07:00:22 PM »
Never used bees wax and never saw the need. Maybe itís just me and common sense, but having melted wax coat the bore of your gun canít be a good thing.

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 10:15:42 PM »
OK I SHOULD HAVE READ MY POST BEFORE SUBMITTING IT.
His lube also contains approx. 1/3 by weight of petroleum jelly. That with the wax I feel is a disaster in the making. Do I need to eat some crow or am I right in not wanting to use it as a patch lube?
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 10:47:29 PM »
Frontier won't use beeswax in his lube either. He did a lot of testing and won't use it now.

I like mink oil from TOW. I don't think it has wax but i'm not sure.
Pete

Offline Bhmack

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2019, 01:52:17 AM »
Iím not a fan of wax and definitely not a fan of petroleum proucts in my BP guns. But then Iím from a holler in Tennessee and in my profile picture Iím wearing a ridiculous bear hat, so you should probably get your advise elsewhere....
-Bob

My Highland ancestors were sentenced to ĎTransportationí in lieu of death by King George after the Battle of Culloden. Serving time in Dixie since 1741.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2019, 05:08:27 PM »
Please also read my additional post not far down this page. I left out some information on this post.
I have a friend who commercially makes bullet lube for cartridge black powder shooters. He is adamant that the approx. 1/3 of the mix is beeswax is just right for round ball patch lube. I have tried to explain to him why there should be little to no wax in your patch lube just enough to keep it from becoming too liquid. Please reply with valid reasons why I am right and please stick to the topic.

Muskrat, If you look up, BPCR lube recipes you will be hard pressed to find one that doesn't use bees wax, some of them more than 50%,,,,just say'n.....Ed 
Ed Hamberg

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2019, 05:45:34 PM »
To long knife: I understand that BPCR shooters have a use for all the beeswax.
My point was the percentage of it and the use of petroleum jelly as a component in it and using that as a patch lube for round ball muzzleloader.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2019, 05:03:40 PM »
BPCR shooters have a need for the bees wax - they are lubing their cast bullets, not balls, and whatever lube they use MUST stick in the grooves of the bullets.
It DOES also mean that hot water should be used for cleaning at the end of the day, as cold just doesn't cut the mustard or the wax.
As a 15 year old in 1960, I shot an 1863 Springfield .577 cal ML rifle.  Of course, we used minie balls, which have lube/expansion rings cast into them.  Lubing them with a secret mix of beeswax, beef tallow, and some sort of vegetable oil was sure a messy business.
Shooting a ball with a lubed patch beats the heck out of messing with all that waxy business!
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2019, 05:34:06 PM »
To Muskrat, So why don't you just try some of your friends BPCR lube and see for yourself?
Ed Hamberg

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2019, 06:47:24 PM »
I have. Just concerned after reading previous posts here about the problems when using lots of pertrolum jelly, and lots of wax in round ball grease. For BPCR shooters this lube is used by previous national match winners and several state match winners, so it has its place but should it be used in round balls as a patch grease?
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2019, 09:18:51 PM »
O.K. Stop with the ďthis is what the black powder cartridge guys useĒ you arenít shooting a cartridge, or a breechloader, so the analogy has no bearing on shooting a muzzleloader. Cartridge shooters have the option of cleaning from the breech, you donít. If you could push the crusty mess out the barrel from the breech there would be no problem, but you canít. That crusty mess either plugs up your vent liner, or your flash channel, depending on your ignition system.
 Petroleum jelly is not a high temperature lube designed to handle extreme heat, and pressure, so these two things can lead to polymerization of the lube which sticks to the bore. The same thing is true for bees wax. Both of these components have a relatively low flash point. You want something with a high flashpoint. Bear, Mutton, and venison tallow, have these properties. They do get loose in hot weather, and can be stabilized with a small amount of bees wax. But that is the only instance I would recommend adding bees wax to patch lube.

  Hungry Horse

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2019, 02:51:28 AM »
Thank you Hungry Horse. Finally got the answer I was looking for, and very well stated with facts to back it up. You are a wise man!
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2019, 04:00:01 PM »
O.K. Stop with the ďthis is what the black powder cartridge guys useĒ you arenít shooting a cartridge, or a breechloader, so the analogy has no bearing on shooting a muzzleloader. Cartridge shooters have the option of cleaning from the breech, you donít.  from the breech there would be no problem, but you canít. That crusty mess either plugs up your vent liner, or your flash channel, depending on your ignition system.
 Petroleum jelly is not a high temperature lube designed to handle extreme heat, and pressure, so these two things can lead to polymerization of the lube which sticks to the bore. The same thing is true for bees wax. Both of these components have a relatively low flash point. You want something with a high flashpoint. Bear, Mutton, and venison tallow, have these properties. They do get loose in hot weather, and can be stabilized with a small amount of bees wax. But that is the only instance I would recommend adding bees wax to patch lube.
 
  Hungry Horse

HH, All the properties you mention suggest that bees wax and petroleum jelly should NOT be used in any black powder weapon,,,BUT,,,it DOES work, and BEAUTIFULLY!!!!!!!!! P.S ,,,go to a  BPCR shoot, you will NOT see anyone "push the crusty mess out the barrel"!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 04:08:04 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2019, 07:24:53 PM »
 Glad its working for you Ed. But, where I live it doesnít. Summer shoots here can be in temperatures well in excess of a hundred degrees, with almost no humidity, in that scenario it doesnít work. It is also a fire hazard, for the reasons previously mentioned.
  Petroleum jelly, and bees wax, are cheap, and easy, to get the components to make, so do you really think we would be rendering tallow, if petroleum jelly did the same thing?
 Oh, and thanks for mentioning the BPCR guys again.

  Hungry Horse

Offline snapper

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2019, 08:52:26 PM »
I have shot thousands of bullets out of ML loaders with bees wax and cresco equal parts.  And a little olive oil.   In all sorts of temperatures and humidity.  There is no more crusty $#@* then any other time.   I have never used it as a patch lube nor do I intend to.  No need.  I donít use it for patch lube because moose milk is easier and works great for me.   I also donít Clean with hot water. Only cold. 

I have placed in the top 3 a lot with my home made lube including 3 National records out of a ML



Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2019, 10:55:46 PM »
How did this get to be about bullet lube? The original thread was about patch lube.

Hungry Horse

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2019, 12:34:56 AM »
Shameless plug for a friend but I wouldn't if the product was bad. This lube won't run in the summer and won't freeze in the winter. Leave a coating in the bore or outside of barrel and it will never rust. It has no beeswax.

As a patch lube, it tested more accurate than mink oil.

Pete

Offline snapper

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2019, 04:20:05 AM »
HH

Most likely because you made a comment about crusty crud out of a ML shooting bees wax.  It simply is not true in my experience.

You wrote:
O.K. Stop with the ďthis is what the black powder cartridge guys useĒ you arenít shooting a cartridge, or a breechloader, so the analogy has no bearing on shooting a muzzleloader. Cartridge shooters have the option of cleaning from the breech, you donít. If you could push the crusty mess out the barrel from the breech there would be no problem, but you canít. That crusty mess either plugs up your vent liner, or your flash channel, depending on your ignition system

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2019, 04:20:43 AM »
I'm going to chuck some info in here after reading all of the postings.

The primary function of a bullet or patch lube is to coat the bore with a "release agent" before the gun is fired.  If the products of powder combustion condense or settle on bare bore walls it will adhere to the metal with varying degrees of tenacity.  The lube film does not act as a true lubricant relative to any projectile movement in the bore.  But how slippery it is (lubricity) will alter how easy it is to move the projectile in the bore. It should have the same degree of lubricity (slickness) from one shot to the next.  Otherwise you see muzzle velocity variations that effect accuracy.  Cloth patches are picky as to how much lube you have in them in a string of shoots.  Dripping wet versus nearly dry.  Velocity variations result.

Comparing bullet lubes for guns shooting elongated projectiles versus patched balls.
A little history is in order.  Up until the introduction of brass cartridges you see the standard military lube for elongated projectiles as a mixture of beeswax and tallow.  Summer lube was two parts beeswax to one part tallow.  When issued for Winter campaigns it was two parts beeswax to one part tallow.  Then along came brass cartridges.  The beeswax and tallow mixture was then out of the question.  Tallow is a fatty acid.  When loaded cartridges would be stored for any length of time the fatty acid tallow would leach copper out of the brass where the bullet was seated in the case mouth.  Case mouths would crack as a result.  Loss of copper made the brass brittle.  Then we see the use of beeswax with japan or bayberry wax.  A name problem here.  Those were not waxes.  They are plant fats found as seed coatings.  Very low acid value so no damage of brass case mouths.  No these two plant fats are soluble in melted beeswax but not cooled solid beeswax.  These bullet lubes were made by melting the beeswax.  Then adding the japan wax or bayberry wax while stirring.  When the beeswax cooled the japan or bayberry wax would form very tiny beads scattered uniformly throughout the beeswax.  Lube grooves on the bullets filled with this lube.  When the cartridge would be fired the bullet would want to shorten and expand tighter into the bore.  This put pressure on the beeswax lube in the lube grooves.  This pressure would force the tiny beads of the bayberry or japan wax to the surface of the beeswax.  Where it then put a microscopic thin coating on the bore walls.  In this lube the beeswax base of the lube was simply the carrier and applicator of the japan wax or bayberry wax in the lube.  Then when the revolving bullet left the muzzle the beeswax would be thrown out of the lube grooves.   

Several posts mentioned petroleum jelly or petroleum waxes.  The petroleum waxes will not varnish or asphalt a bore.  They cannot polymerize from the presence of sulfur in the bore as petroleum greases will do.  With Vaseline the wax in that is seen as paraffin wax.  Other "waxy" crude oil stocks yield microcrystaline waxes with widely varying melt points.

Over the years there have been a number of ML patch and bullet lubes based on petrolatum wax.  They changed odors and colors.  That became a joke at Dixons.  How many ways can you hide Chap Stick!

Bill K.

Offline yulzari

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Re: Beeswax in patch lube
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2019, 04:57:58 PM »
Here is the Indian Army take on bees wax for cloth patches for the Brunswick Rifle:

In 1847 orders issued and approved by the Commander in Chief and Governor General.......the balls to be put up, five in a string in small cloth bags with a greased patch of fine cloth, a portion carried in a ball bag attached to the girdle on the right side, the remainder in pouch. Patches to be made of calico or long cloth and issued ready greased from magazines a portion of the composition will also be issued with the patches for the purpose of renewal when required, instructions for its preparation forwarded to magazine officers by the Military Board.(The following instructions for the preparation of the grease and its application to the cartridge cloth as follows: To 3 pints of country [Indian made] linseed oil add a quarter of a pound of beeswax, which mix by melting the wax in a ladle pouring the oil in and allowing it to remain on the fire until the composition is thoroughly melted. The cloth is then saturated and held by one corner until the mixture ceases to run, after which it is to be laid out as smoothly as possible on a clean spot to cool. The above quantity of composition will answer for 3 yards of of long cloth, from which 1,200 patches can be made'
These instructions were approved by the Governor General Lord Hardinge, in a letter from the Military Secretary to the Adjutant General dated 6th April 1847.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 05:01:53 PM by yulzari »