Author Topic: Owner info requested  (Read 914 times)

Offline JTR

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Owner info requested
« on: July 11, 2019, 07:03:50 PM »
I wonder if anyone here owns, or knows the whereabouts of either of these Fredrick Sell rifles?
I have a similar one, half stock, but the end of the stock is pretty messed up, with no cap on the end. I wonder if the others are half stock, and what they have for an end cap?
Any help would be appreciated! Please PM or email me if you don't want to reply here.
Thanks, John

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14258.0
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13823.0
John Robbins

Offline lexington1

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 09:50:33 PM »
Was yours a full stock originally? Just curious if you are looking for information to return it to full stock or? I have this one, if you need any info. or specs.


Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2019, 12:46:53 AM »
I wonder if anyone here owns, or knows the whereabouts of either of these Fredrick Sell rifles?
I have a similar one, half stock, but the end of the stock is pretty messed up, with no cap on the end. I wonder if the others are half stock, and what they have for an end cap?
Any help would be appreciated! Please PM or email me if you don't want to reply here.
Thanks, John

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14258.0
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13823.0

  Would you post Pix of what you have?

   Tim C.

Offline JTR

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 12:58:02 AM »
Hi Wes, Thanks for posting the picture of yours!

I'm thinking mine was probably a full stock originally, then cut to half stock, mainly because there is no sign of it ever having any sort of cap just ahead of the ramrod entry pipe. But it does have a nice metal under rib screwed to the barrel, with recesses for the ramrod thimbles. This under rib is also soldered in place, but sloppily, and doesn't look like Sell would have done. The barrel is 39 inches long now, and by the placement of the rear sight, looks like the barrel has been shortened 3 or 4 inches from the rear. Was originally flint, but now percussion.
The only fixing it really needs is the forearm is worn completely through from the ramrod, and consequently the forearm is splitting back into the trigger guard area. I was thinking if it originally had a cap at the end of the forearm, adding a replacement would help support the thin wood from splitting any further.

Thanks, John

Tim, Here's the cheek side, and part of the growing crack,

« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:13:12 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 03:57:53 AM »
Is that rifle signed "F. Sell"? The butt carving looks more like Jacob Sell's work to me.  Shelby Gallien

Offline JTR

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2019, 02:03:26 AM »
Shelby, no, it isnít signed. And I scratched my head over the maker after I bought it.
I looked through my library, and Kindigs seemed to offer the most examples; 5 by Jacob Sell the younger, and 12 by Fredrick Sell.
So first off, if you just look at the stock and furniture, and not the carving, the gun fits Fredricks work to a tee. Similarities are the shape of the buttstock with a sharper drop at the nose of the comb than Jacob used. The shape of the facings on the lock and side plate side match that of several Fredrick rifles (minus the teardrops), as does the side plate itself, including the third screw as he sometimes used. The facings used by Jacob, at least of Kindigs, all terminate in a sharp point to the rear, and he used a different side plate shape all together.
The trigger Guard on mine matches the one pictured on page 407, in detail, pretty much exactly. The trigger on my gun matches those by Fredrick. I see one similar trigger by Jacob, but minus the curl at the tip of the trigger. The cameo cut around the nose of the comb and out onto both sides of the stock is identical to those used by Fredrick, and though similar, different than those used by Jacob. 
Another notable difference, and pointed out by Kindig is the cheek rest. He mentions on pg 400, that Jacob placed his cheek piece very low on the stock, and close to the lower edge of the stock. The cheek piece on my gun is in a more central position as Fredrick used.
As for the carving, the carving on mine closely matches that of Kindigs # 190 as far as the two C scrolls ahead of the cheek piece, the carving under the cheek piece, the moldings on the edge of the cheek piece itself, and the cameo cut from the nose of the comb down to the front end of the cheek piece.
However, the main body of the carving behind the cheek piece certainly resembles that of Jacobs work on # 179.
Noting all the above, and feeling that most of the work on the gun resembles Fredricks work moreso than Jacobs, I think the gun was made by Fredrick.
How Jacobs carvings style ended up behind the cheek piece on this gun, I canít say.
According to Kindig, they were likely brothers, living at the same time, in the same area, so maybe who knows.
Any other ideas are certainly welcome, as the gun was no doubt made by one, or maybe both of them. 

I've had a couple guys reply to me with full stock rifles, but am still looking for pictures of the nose cap on a Sell halfstock.
John

Here's the other side. The lock is a replacement. Note the cameo cut around the nose of the comb, and compare to Kindig Fredrick Sell #192.
                                                   


« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 02:32:29 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2019, 08:00:57 AM »
John, that was a solid, well thought out explanation for the attribution. Wish everyone went to that detail of study to make attributions!  Thanks, Shelby

Offline JTR

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 06:57:52 PM »
Thanks Shelby.

And thanks to ol' Joe Kindig and his amazing collection too!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 07:03:18 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline lexington1

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 07:57:45 PM »
I love the Western Pa. hammer to was used to convert this! Do you think it was made into a halfstock at the same time as the conversion? If so maybe you should look at Penna. 1/2 stocks of the period for a possible clue as to how the nosecap was treated. Just throwing that out there, as I'm probably full of it.....

Offline Buck

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 12:58:39 AM »
John,

Nice rifle - if I remember the conclusion is there was only one Jacob who was substantially older than Frederick. I would opine the rifle wasn't originally half stock, that period was later than Fred's working period. Nice find.

Buck

Offline VP

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 02:00:24 AM »
JTR,

Does the bow of the trigger guard have a line on each side that parallels the bow? That's something that Frederick did on most of his rifles that I have seen. You can see what I mean from this example of a signed F. Sell rifle.

VP


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Offline JTR

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 08:19:57 AM »
VP, Yes it does.
Mine is a worn a bit, but nicely matches the one shown on Pg 407 in Kindigs book, as well as the one you show.

Buck, So the Jacob the younger and the Jacob the older are thought now to be the same guy? I'm far out of the loop on such things, but the hand sure looks like different guys.

Wes, I'd think the percussion conversion and half stocking were done at the same time. Likely the under rib as well. Good idea on the nose cap!
John Robbins

Offline Buck

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 02:38:29 PM »
John,

Yes - that is the consensus. With that in mind, look at the rifles in progression in the book. Though the hand might appear to be different the rifles and details become more refined through the progression. I've had 1 Jacob and 2 Frederick pieces, 2 rifles and 1 pistol. 

A few pictures of the Frederick pistol and 1 of the rifle. Pistol was untouched - unfortunately I do not have it anymore, it went towards a screaming swivel.

Enjoy!
 


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« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 02:44:25 PM by Buck »

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Owner info requested
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 09:02:41 PM »
That last pic you posted Buck, sure is purty! ;)
Joel Hall