Author Topic: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity  (Read 1156 times)

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2019, 03:12:46 PM »
Thank you very much Daryl. One thing I know for certain . Size does matter.  Nothing I have shot with the 10 bore has ever gone more than 20 yards, most 10 yards or even less.  And I've never had to shoot twice .   I like it when hunting on my property because other hunters often hug the fence lines .

Offline shifty

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2019, 03:43:18 PM »
    I hae been shooting a little 50cal. Leman fantasy rifle with 24" barrel at 1-48 twist that i just finnished a couple months ago , i have settled at the moment on 65 grns of FFg Goex. I have been getting  3/4" grps at 25yds to 1 1/2"grps at 75yds 3 shots using the same POA,  but at 100yds it goes to 4"grps and 6"s low.So i am going to stick to 75 yds or closer for hunting ,my shots on deer are usually 10 to 40 yds anyway.

Offline Daryl

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2019, 08:22:04 PM »
Most .50's do their best shooting with 85 to 100gr. of 2F powder, accuracy wise, for me.
When I was shooting a 48" twist .50 commercial rifle, it was best with around 85 to 90gr. 2F GOEX- in it's 28" long bl.
The .50 Bauska barrel I had with 48" twist was only 26" long (Canoe Gun ;) ) and it preferred 85gr. 3F GOEX for best
accuracy.

Shifty, you did not mention how you had the rifle sighted - range- ie: 0'd at 25 also 0'd (to 1/2" high)
at 50 and 3" low at 75yards would be about normal then 6 to 7" low at 100.  Group size, not drop
should dictate what charge you use.

While heavier charges develop higher velocities & flatter trajectories, they also develop higher pressures
 which mandate the use of tighter ball and patch combinations - normally. Water based :target shooting"
lubes, normally do not shoot to the same POI at oil and grease type hunting lubes. They also usually require
heavier charges to shoot equally well. If all you use are oils or greases, then there is no testing of changes
needed, except for powder charge.
Good luck and keep us posted. :)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 08:28:30 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2019, 11:21:47 PM »
I killed quite a few deer with a 42" .50 and 100 grains of 3F.  Velocity was, IIRC, 2100 fps.  That load could really shoot!  Later I decided it was far too much powder.  Now I rely on around 1700 fps from 70 grains of 3F.
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Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline shifty

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2019, 03:03:04 AM »
  Daryl, I have this rifle O'd dead on at 50 yds  then it  groups  just slightly low at 25 yds not really enuff for me to tell the difference and then at 75 yds it groups about  1 1/2"  below the 50 yd group using the same POA  then at 100 yds it groups about 6" below the 50 yd group but it is about a 4" group at that range. At the 100 yds distance i'm having trouble with seeing the target also it has been so hot humid that i have to remove my glasses let them clear up then hurry up and get on target and fire. What is odd but it is working real well for me is that i made a full buck horn sight for the rear and am using it like a peep sight.

    Load is 65grns  FFg  Goex, pillow ticking .015 patch, .490 Speer balls and mink Oil lube.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2019, 04:57:18 AM »
Thanks for posting, Shifty.  I'm not aware of what barrel you have , but most I know of have a rifling groove depth of .012 to .016 in 50 cal .  With a .490 ball, I'd suggest using your patch thickness to .018 , and going with at least an 80 gr charge of FFg .   That said it's hard to argue with a 4 in group at 100 yards . Still,  I think you'll get better results with the heavier patch and charge.

Offline alacran

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2019, 02:30:41 PM »
My hunting loads are always based on what powder charge and ball patch combo gives me the best accuracy. Since most of my hunting is done out West, I look for an upper end load, eg. 80 to 85gr of 2f in a .50, 95 to 110 grs in a .54 a 100 to 120 gr in a .58 etc.
Once a load is determined I sight the rifle with that load at 100 yards. That gives me a point blank range load. Usually close to dead on at 25 yards, 4 to 5.5 inches high at fifty, and dead on again at 100 yards.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2019, 04:20:56 PM »
A pure lead round ball on deer will give about 30" of penetration at rifle velocities and no heavy bones are struck. On elk and larger game striking a large bone with a 54 cal will reduce penetration but should will still reach the vitals. Though lage moose have HUGE bones and I would shoot my 16 bore and a hard ball if hunting AK/Yukon variety. I hunt both forest and plains and use the same charge for everything. Calibers? I think 54 is minimum for animals like elk. Mostly due to bone thing since its possible to encounter the humerus when doing a chest shot. 50 cal is a great killer on Mule and WT deer even at 140-150 yards with lung shots. But they seldom drop at the shot no matter what is used unless the electrical system is disrupted.
Elk can pack off a lot of lead but Sir William Drummond Stewart thought they were easier the stop with his 20 bore than Mule Deer? I have had both Mule and WT run as much as 200 yards when perfectly hit with a 50-54 RB even when the range was under 50 yards. I destroyed the heart of a MD doe at <50 with a .662 ball +- 1600 fps at the muzzle and she still ran 55 long steps. It was a "raking shot" from the front and it was a "heavy hit" that turned the top 2/3 of the heart to jello. Hardened balls will greatly increase penetration and a 50-69 caliber hole is  still big enough. I like pass through on lung shots. It improves the blood trail. Too much penetration is better than not enough. AND reducing the velocity may not greatly reduce the penetration. a 50 caliber RB at 800 fps will shoot through a deer or antelope chest so don't expect a light load to keep the ball in a deer on broadside shots. This based on a 6" 50 cal pistol I used to have. However, striking the humerus WILL reduce penetration, in this case a 54 cal pistol with a heavy charge at about 30 yards shattered that upper leg bone, took the arteries over the heart and lodged under the far side hide. Deer made about 30 yards or so.
I have recovered few RBs from animals over the years, the vast majority pass through since I shoot for the heart/lungs. Even a shoulder shot that misses the big bone will likely pass through with a 54 rifle. This encompasses maybe 80 or more deer and an elk or two shot with RBs. I quit counting at 70 or so and have hunted with other arms as well. Can't hunt with open sights till the VA approves changing the lens in my right eye. Might be done for hunting season.
The photo is of the front leg and shoulder of a Bull Moose shot in central AK by a friend. 54 RB is not compatible with that leg bone.
Dan


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Offline Daryl

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2019, 06:57:50 PM »
Good post and picture, Dan.
This is a calf moose I shot about 8 years back. His front leg bones were 2" in diameter
and he was only 6 months old. Just over 200pounds dressed out in quarters.
Their bones get big - early on. Best eating moose I've ever had.



Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2019, 10:10:14 PM »
The way my .50 is sighted in the ball is "maybe" 1" low at 25 yards.  At 50 yards around 2" high and some 4" low at 100.  This is with a load that gives about 1700 fps.  This is, for my shooting, point blank to 100 yards.  100 yard shots are very unlikely but still doable.  The ball hits the heavy 12" 100 yd gong hard causing it to swing impressively.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2019, 10:30:49 PM »
Once again: it is not how much "thump" you hit them with it is where you hit them that counts!
Go to the range more learn to hit what you aim at and you will spend much less time following blood trails or wounded game.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:44:27 PM by MuskratMike »
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Offline Jerry

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:16 PM »
Heavy powder charges can never replace a well placed shot.

Offline shifty

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2019, 02:15:54 AM »
    bob in the woods, my barrel has .011 deep rifling at 1-48" twist . I don't lube my patch's heavy just a light amount of mink oil( almost dry) on one side that touches the barrel with this combo it loads fairly snug  .  I am happy with the accuracy and i should be getting around 930 fps at 100 yds ,but i am going to try 70 and 75 grns of powder the next time at the range. I just wanted a light weight light recoiling short handy rifle,i think it is.

Offline Daryl

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2019, 06:44:07 PM »
Heavy powder charges can never replace a well placed shot.

You are absolutely right Jerry. What I find in my rifles is that with greased or oiled patches, heavier powder charges shoot much more
accurately than light charges, which allows me to hit exactly where I want. Much of this is due to the rather low trajectory they provide
 over normal hunting ranges. 
Here, many shots  have to be taken at longer than bush ranges as in 100 & even to 150yards or so. That is why I use a rifle that has the
carrying power to kill at longer ranges if necessary. I also practice with it at those ranges & out to 200 meters. It is easy to hit the 200 meter
plate, which is much smaller than the kill zone on an elk or moose, and hit it form the offhand position. The 16" x 14" plates are quite easy to smack,
 especially with express sights on the rifle.  Do not listen to people who tell you they are close range dangerous game sights only. Those people lack the
experience of shooting this wonderful sight design. I found the little 1861 Musketoon I had and sold to a new and young BP shooter, was also easy to hit
to 200 meters. When demonstrating/coaching him on loading, holding and shooting this delightful little military 'piece', I told him to watch the 20 meter plate
through my spotting scope. He did and exclaimed "I could see the ball over the last 50 meters, arcing in and hitting the plate." Out to 300 meters, the issue
sights appeared to be smack on, yet I was using patched round balls and 85gr. 2F.  85gr. is the issue load marked on the gun. As that load was hard on his
bony little shoulder, dropping the load to 50gr. was much more pleasant for him to shoot. One other shooter we have, uses 50gr. 3F GOEX in his Musketoon and is
exceptionally accurate with it. Neil is very hard to beat on the trail walk when he's shooting that short little gun. He's 75yrs. old, I think & still an exceptional shot.
The closely spaced military sights just seem to work for him much better than either of his long rifle's sights.
Use whatever works, for YOU.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline dave951

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2019, 03:59:21 PM »
Most of the guys I know in the North South Skirmish Association who hunt with muzzle loaders, do so with their competition muskets. Typical load is 400+gr 58cal minie, 45gr 3fg. Obviously not tons of powder, but neither is it needed. The load is very accurate and the minie is 400+gr making for ballistics similar to a 44mag and nobody would think that as underpowered at under 50yds on whitetail. On paper kinetic energy numbers don't tell the tale of momentum and impulse and how that relates to the caliber of the bullet in energy transfer. That bullet put a lot of folks into the ground in the 1860s and it's more than capable of putting bambi in the freezer today.

Offline longcruise

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2019, 05:54:45 AM »
What I have found regarding penetration is that fast loads tend to penetrate less  at close ranges probably due to deformation of the ball.  Especially if a bone is hit.  The only ball I have recovered was from an elk hit broadside with a .54 over 110 grains of  goex 2f at 30 yards. The ball hit a rib going in and stopped under the skin after passing between the ribs on the other side.  It was flattened out and had bone embedded in the impact side.

A deer hit with a slower. 50 caliber ball at 80 yards that had a muzzle velocity of only 1325 fps passed through with a similar broadside hit that didn't involve bone.
Mike Lee

Offline Dphariss

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 06:18:02 AM »
The advantage of higher velocity is trajectory By 100 yard a RB has lost a lot of velocity but starting a 50-54 at 1900 or so cam make the trajectory such that a center hold will be on a deer's kill zone to a 120-130 yards. Where I live its best to have the rifle zeroed for 110-120 yards.
This will allow kills over unknown ranges. Its pretty easy to misjudge distance by more than one might think even when experienced, when hunting in open spaces. Even the light can make things seem closer than they are.
Penetration is not usually a problem unless as stated previously and by some others.>
About 400 yards from where the old IH is parked I shot 3 shots and a MD buck with a 54 FL (loading while prone) and never touched him. He was about 50-60 yards farther than I thought.

Dan

No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Offline shifty

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 04:47:59 PM »
  Dphariss, Are you using some where around 130 grns of powder to get those velocities in your 54cal is your twist 1-66 or 1-72,by the way  that is a beautiful  site where you pickup is parked there. My little short Leman 50cal will most likely never be shot at over 75yds on game and more like 5-45 yds i have never shot a deer with a ml past 45yds here in the woods so i think i will be ok but i may try upping to 70-75 grns and check for groups  Sure would like to hunt there where you are Dphariss,i do have a longer range 50 cal. Wish i had a chrony to play with,so i would know my velocities.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 05:00:36 PM by shifty »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: hunting, effectiveness vs velocity
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2019, 07:27:02 AM »
90 gr FFF Swiss, cupped breech face.
Takes 100 or so of Goex FFF.
Barrel is a Douglas. Don't get shot much any more.
Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman