Author Topic: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?  (Read 685 times)

Offline G_T

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Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« on: August 13, 2019, 10:03:11 PM »
I'm watching the thread on coloring wood glue with interest. The timing was perfect for something I'm considering...

... removing the rear point from a somewhat modified Late Ketland lock unfortunately already inlet in an unfinished SMR stock, to bring it closer to original styling. That requires patching a scrap of wood right at the back of the lock mortice, which is a high visibility area.

I'm not sure I can make the wood joint completely disappear, though I should be able to get it quite close... I don't want it to show in the finished rifle. From my experience joints parallel to the wood grain can disappear quite completely. Near parallel can disappear if the grain alignment is perfect. But this would require substantially diagonal cuts, at a minimum. And there is curl...

I figure I can probably get the required scrap of wood from where grease hole / patchbox would go, so the wood should at least initially match. If I can't match the wood then I figure it is a non-starter.

To my eyes, if the alteration doesn't disappear it is worse than leaving the point on the lock. I have no intention of making the change if it is destined to look like poor craftsmanship no matter how well done. I'm picky in that regard.

Wood is curly Silver Maple, I think, with decent curl throughout. Not Sugar or Red. The curl adds to the fun of patching the wood!

Should work, or bad idea? Anyone done this? How did it come out? Variations in the sheen from the curl give it away no matter what?

I don't consider inletting the lock deeper to be an option. I like the depth where I have it now.

If I can get pictures to work, I may post some tonight. But so far I've always failed getting pictures to show on this site.

Thanks!
Gerald

Online rich pierce

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 10:07:17 PM »
Almost anything can be patched successfully when the finish is very dark, especially with texture. When light, defects are easier to see. I might take it down to the level of the base of the lick panel at the rear and have both front edges at an angle feathering into the lock panel.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 10:21:29 PM »
Quote
I don't consider inletting the lock deeper to be an option. I like the depth where I have it now.
You can't inlet a lock deeper.  You can only inlet until the bolster touches the barrel.
Dave Kanger

A dedicated person with just a pocketknife can accomplish more than a lazy person with an entire toolbox.

Offline fahnenschmied

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 10:34:38 PM »
Well, go for it.  Try to get as much taper on your inlet patch as you can, and get as tight a fit as you can.  With some taper you can get a very close fit and a lesser glue line.  Most likely only you will notice it.

Offline G_T

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 10:51:28 PM »
So let me phrase it this way to hopefully avoid miscommunication. If I re-inlet the lock deeper than it is now, I'm possibly substituting one architecture blunder (either too deep a lock in its inlet, or too narrow a rifle in the lock area if the left and right flats are reduced to match the new lock depth, or having a lock that doesn't parallel the barrel side by tilting the inlet deeper only at the rear) for fixing another (pointy lock on an SMR).

I'd have to remove about 1/16" from the bolster and deepen the lock, and narrow the rifle both sides of the barrel by 1/8" total and carry that loss through the wrist and forestock. Then notch the barrel for the mainspring as current clearance is pretty close to zero. That could be done, possibly... I'll take a careful look at it tonight. It's a good suggestion. But I don't think I have that much extra fat on this rifle to do it without it looking contrived. It would also really weaken the rifle and make it springy in the wrist, I would think. Were it a cartridge rifle I'd be thinking about running a steel rod from the back of the barrel through the wrist into the buttstock to make sure sufficient strength remains! Joking, slightly. I'll look over my collection of pictures of original J Whitson's to see how the width looks.

Bolsters can be modified to fit the way you want them to. I do that if the need arises. I took off a little from this bolster already, for the part that overlaps the barrel but not the part inlet into the wood. Of course it helps if there is excess meat there to start with. That's not the case for all locks.

Gerald

Offline little joe

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 11:21:15 PM »
If you are a beginner patch it up as patching is a skill you will need every so often in this hobby.

Offline JTR

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 12:46:27 AM »
I'll look over my collection of pictures of original J Whitson's to see how the width looks.

Gerald

My J. Whitson is attributed (by a couple of guys that know these guns much better than I). If it helps, the wood of the lock mortise is 1.575" wide at the rear, and tapers down to 1.325" wide at the front.
John
John Robbins

Offline G_T

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 07:42:10 AM »
Trying again to get a picture posted...



Success!

Anyway, it started life as Kibler SMR but is getting a bit of a life of its own, mostly in small details here and there.

Reshaped trigger guard to more closely resemble North Carolina School of Longrifles #207, and Notes on Southern Long Rifles #124, though it needs more filing and polishing. It feels better to my hand now, with a more definite location that sets the trigger finger where I want it for my size hand. It also eliminates the rear slide. If the guard were made from scratch, it probably should be slightly larger. Anyway, I did what I could with the original casting and the pre-inlet which put a lot of constraints on how I could reshape it and still have it fit. The perspective of the picture makes it look slightly worse than it is.

Rear trigger is modified to be more similar to pics I've seen of originals (though it isn't shaped precisely the same). That's a replacement not just a bent one, as I broke the original trying to reshape it. Apparently I didn't have it quite hot enough... So I fabricated another shoe from mild steel and managed to get it solidly attached though I had to resort to gold solder to get a really solid joint. I tried various other things before resorting to the gold but they all failed under hard test load. The gold holds strong enough that the trigger will bend first. That was my test. It doesn't bend easily. I like this one quite a bit better than the stock one.

Lock is modified a bit too. Here it shows a little in the pan area. Other minor geometry tweaks would show at half cock. The cock is farther forward at half cock and is very slightly different shape than default. casting shape. Probably doesn't show. Frizzen lays back closer to the cock when closed, and more open when open. Frizzen spring slightly reshaped to adjust timing. Frizzen and some other parts rehardened to be the way I prefer. Various etc, tweaking mostly. So if someone doesn't like the lock blame me not either Jim!

Thanks for the dimensions John! The lock mortice area tapers from about 1.44" to about 1.34". IMHO I don't really have room to narrow it or to lose any of the taper. The stock taper looks good with the barrel taper.

Only other change so far is the buttplate is inlet forward for more complete wood contact and a little down, giving a little more drop and a bit more of a subtle curve to the overall profile of the buttstock. Original holes pegged for new screw locations.

I'll be making a tapered ramrod from a thicker blank. I'm expecting to make other changes but that's for later.

I'm not trying to make the rifle a copy of a Whitson... I don't have one to copy, just pics! But I am trying to make it closer to what J. Whitson might have produced. Or at least my interpretation of it! Something that someone would notice as Whitson-ish at least.

Gerald

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 08:29:56 PM »
I would not attempt the modification.  You know it will be there, and no matter how well it is disguised, you will always be looking at it, knowing it isn't right.  build that rifle and finish it up as is...it's superlative already!
If you want a bench copy of a particular rifle, the only way is to build it from scratch.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 04:25:10 AM »
Ditto what Taylor sez. Build it as is, get some experience on a couple more, then jump in and build one from plank. I really like this lock, and have used one with the tail rounded as you desire,but it was installed in a non inlet stock.
I would like to see some lock maker produce the Golcher late period flintlocks.Nice rounder tail,and look.
 Welcome aboard,enjoy your time here. Best regards, Dave F  8) 8)

Offline redheart

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2019, 04:57:16 AM »
I would not attempt the modification.  You know it will be there, and no matter how well it is disguised, you will always be looking at it, knowing it isn't right.  build that rifle and finish it up as is...it's superlative already!
If you want a bench copy of a particular rifle, the only way is to build it from scratch.
I agree whole heartedly with Taylor. It looks fantastic as it is.
I'm the kind of guy that would always be looking at it to see if it was really good enough. :'( :-\

Offline redheart

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2019, 05:02:48 AM »
Ditto what Taylor sez. Build it as is, get some experience on a couple more, then jump in and build one from plank. I really like this lock, and have used one with the tail rounded as you desire,but it was installed in a non inlet stock.
I would like to see some lock maker produce the Golcher late period flintlocks.Nice rounder tail,and look.
 Welcome aboard,enjoy your time here. Best regards, Dave F  8) 8)
I also agree with Dave F!
I, like Dave would also love to see a late Golcher flintlock being made, but in the meantime perhaps we should talk about how we could mimic this lock from parts already on the market, if possible.

Offline Bhmack

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2019, 05:31:42 AM »
Not.
-Bob

My Highland ancestors were sentenced to ‘Transportation’ in lieu of death by King George after the Battle of Culloden. Serving time in Dixie since 1746.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Lock mod requiring adding wood - advisable or not?
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2019, 10:34:26 AM »
Put me down as one who thinks Jim Kibler got it right the first time. God bless, and best wishes on your endeavour, Marc