Author Topic: Peter White Bedford County rifles  (Read 1546 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Peter White Bedford County rifles
« on: August 17, 2019, 01:18:43 AM »
Just saw the beautiful Peter White rifle that T. Caster finished up. I have always wanted to build a Bedford County rifle in Flint. Am curious as to what barrel profile comes closest to what he or other Bedford county makers used. I would like to use a 50 cal Rice A profile Southern Classic, but I don't want it to be too far from the original's. I assume the only lock option I have is one of the L&R's but my experience with L&R locks has not been pleasant and I would prefer to use sometime else if possible, any options?

Thanks for any input you may provide, I am green as grass on most all PA rifles.
Dennis
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Offline Joe Stein

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 05:06:16 AM »
Dennis,  I have looked a quite a number of original Bedford rifles at gun shows.  All the ones I have seen have straight barrels, or so little swamp that it can barely be seen, but I have never had a chance to handle a flintlock Bedford. I don't know of any locks that are readily available, except the L&R.
Hope this helps,
Joe Stein

Offline Goo

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 02:17:24 PM »
Hi  Dennis,. I would find it helpful to know the specific details of your experience with the L & R locks.   I have used one of their locks and had a satisfactory experience.   In my case I used a small Durrs Egg for a slender straight barrel copy of a John Sherry rifle.
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Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2019, 03:28:37 PM »
Speaking of limited options and Bedfords... I'd like to make a left handed one.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2019, 03:41:21 PM »
Hard to find an original Bedford flintlock that is not a reconversion so it’s hard to know just what the cock, pan, and frizzen looked like. Plus the very elongated rat tail may be a later feature. But in the absence of multiple examples we do what we can.

I’d have no issues using an L&R lock but I’m used to modifying most locks. Exceptions are the larger Chambers locks, the round faced English and the early Ketlands.
Andover, Vermont

Offline t.caster

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2019, 04:47:04 PM »
I am glad my Bedford recreation has sparked some interest in this school. They don't all have to look like hockey sticks. The one I just did was a compilation of three or four different White flintlocks. All had rat tail flintlocks. Based on the given weights of the originals at 9 and 10 lbs. for .45 and .46 calibers from 43" to 44" long I would surmise they were straight oct. barrels or maybe just a slight swamp. My gun weighs 8.5" with a .50 cal. x 7/8" straight x 42" barrel, so I think it is right in the ballpark of authenticity.
As for the flintlock....the L&R Bedford is the only one I know of. Efforts to find a lefthanded one failed to turn up anything. That said, not all Bedford makers used a rat tailed lock. White used a lock similar to a Bailes on one of his pistols, and James Clark and John Amos also used round tailed locks of that size. Oh, and you can get a lefthanded Bailes lock!
I have had very good luck with the Bailes flintlock and this Bedford has the same internal parts and pan and frizzen. The cock is very slim and lighter weight and I was afraid it wouldn't spark (short stroke too). I am used to shooting a heavy springed Deluxe Siler though. I shot this rifle for the first time yesterday and in 19 shots it went off quick and without any clatches!
I wouldn't use this lock right out of the box, because had issues with the tumbler/fly/sear engagement, which I remedied, and the cock shoulder had to be filed a little to point the flint into the pan better. Actually a Small Bailes cock is indexed better for this lock and I was tempted to put one of those on it. It has more weigh to it too. Like Rich and others builders say, most all locks need some tuning/tinkering to get the best out of them.
Tom C.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2019, 06:08:46 PM »
Hi  Dennis,. I would find it helpful to know the specific details of your experience with the L & R locks.   I have used one of their locks and had a satisfactory experience.   In my case I used a small Durrs Egg for a slender straight barrel copy of a John Sherry rifle.

When I first started building my Gillespie family rifles the locks I bought a new Durs Egg from someone on ALR. That was a great lock so I assumed all of their locks were the same. I sold that first rifle and bought several L&R locks. The large round tailed Ashmore seemed to be perfect for my SMR Gillespie rifles. I built a cherry stocked 54 cal Mathew Gillrspie rifle with that lock and I was lucky to get it to fire 75% of the time. Between the absence of a vent liner and its weak sparking it was no fun to shoot. I finally got it better by heating the frizzen in a can of sand in my wife's oven. It still was not a reliably lock so I sold the rifle to a Gillespie descendant that was not a shooter. Guess it did well as a wall hanger.

I then used several of the small manton locks most of those were as bad as the Ashmore about weak sparking. Also had a couple break off chips of metal on the sear notch near where the fly is (Ben awhile but I think that is properly described) L&R replaced both but it was a pain shipping off and waiting for them to send back. Then I had one that just would not spark no matter what I did. Sent it back to L&R and the replaced the frizzen and it still would not halfway spark. Sent it back and if I remember correctly I got it back from Larry Zorn and it was a good sparker after that. Started using Late Ketland's and was pleased as punch with them and the were about the same price so have used them almost exclusively ever since on the Gillespie's except for one rifle where I needed a shorter lock (forget why) ordered small Manton built rifle and it was also a hit or miss sparker, was at a VA show and was talking to Troy Roope and he mentioned how the small Manton was his favorite lock for target shooting, lock speed was great etc. I told him about my latest lock being such a poor sparker and he said send it to me and I will fix it. I did and that's the lock he was working on when the primer tool blew up in his hand and he lost most of his thumb and messed up his index finger!  When I got the lock back it was a reliable sparker. Have not used a flint L&R since. Have had no problem with the one or two percussion L&R's that I have used.  Have heard improvements have been made on their locks but I have had such good luck with Chambers late Ketlands I see no need to change.
Dennus
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2019, 06:44:18 PM »
Thank you Dennis for the detailed info. I just got a left hand Bailes/small Manton this week and it looks and feels like a nice little lock. Now I'm anxious to see how it works. It better work. I don't have any use for a gun that only fires 3 out of 4 times. T.Caster said he has good luck with it, so I guess time will tell.

T.Caster, what issue did you have with the tumbler, sear, and fly? What should I look for? I worked it by hand numerous times and it seems to work good. One time when working it slow I thought I felt a little more resistance than usual when the fly was contacted, but I couldn't get it to do it again. I'm half afraid the disassemble this thing... looks like there's more tiny moving parts in there.  :o

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2019, 07:08:33 PM »
The only issue with L & R locks that I can relate is with the sear spring.  Whoever is assembling them grinds off the working end of the spring FROM THE BOTTOM making it too short, bearing on the sear some distance back from the pivot area.  Consequently, the sear action is very stiff.  The fix is to remove the sear spring, which is a sheet steel thing, heat it red and straighten out the metal.  Then, re-bend the spring to make the lower leg longer, thin it to create the flexibility a sear spring should have, and re-harden and temper it.  This process may seem daunting, but it is quite simple and straight forward.  While I'm at it, I remove the sear, and file the pivot bolster (where the screw passes through) to make a sharp corner rather than a curved surface, for the sear spring to bear.  I polish all internal lock parts on all locks and case harden the bridles.
The fly in these locks is a flat piece with a small hole at the top rather than a leg like traditional flies.  Be sure to replace the fly with the longer beveled face toward the rear, otherwise it won't work and you'll go nuts trying to figure out why.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2019, 10:20:28 PM »
You guys are a wealth of info... and threads like this really help newbies like me... if only to raise questions I didn't know I had. I'd seek more answers to such questions if I wasn't so busy with the basics  :-\ Today I'm inletting my first lock. It's going painfully slow. I'm close, and straight and square now, about .012 from the barrel, but i had been at it for a log time and just had to walk away for a bit.

D. Taylor, didn't you have a thread here somewhere on fine tuning/honing locks?

Offline t.caster

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2019, 11:28:54 PM »
Taylor, you bring up one of my Biggest pet peaves in almost everybody's locks where the sear spring is too short. I like it to bear as close to the pivot point as possible. I will try your solution next time.

Jeff, I hope I can explain this....they put a bearing surface on the tumbler where it passes through the lock plate. Good idea so the tumbler doesn't rub on the plate, (friction is the enemy of speed) but...the fly is almost thin enough to slide under the tumbler, and.... the sear was able to move up and down on it's bolt and ride over the fly. Tightening the sear bolt bent the bridle down and then the sear was angled up at the nose and down at the rear, so it missed the fly that way too! After honing the sear brg.  face parallel to the arm and plate I made a brass spacer/washer .025" thick to put between the sear arm and the bridle. This got everything back into alignment and the sear nose is close to the plate and won't skip over the fly and land back in the half cock notch now. That issue may be peculiar to this one lock as I haven't had to mess with it on the three other Bailes lock I have on guns here.
Oh, and the forward bridle screw was so long it rubbed on the inside of the cock, slowing it down considerably. I used to design automated machinery so I tend to notice things like this and actually enjoy finding a solution to the little details that can really mess things up.
Tom C.

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2019, 02:04:27 AM »
Tom, thanks for the detailed reply. I think I have a basic grasp of what you're talking about. I'm new at this, but mechanically minded and am trying to understand how these things work, and how to work on them, so I can address future issues and so my guns are reliable. I noticed the fly as I worked and inspected the lock, and I saw that little gap under the tumbler you mentioned that is created by the bearing surface, and the fly is so tiny, it looks like it could get bound or sucked into it, with use and wear if nothing else. Makes proper lube seem important.

I don't like how some locks seem to have their bridles bent down with that bolt, unless the bolt is left loose. In my mind, it should be a 'shoulder bolt' and tightened to the shoulder, just as it contacts the bridle.... without bending it down. On some, if it's tightened, it will slow or halt the tumbler. I ended up sanding the top surface of the bridle and removing some of the underside of the head of that bolt so it would shoulder up at the end of the threads before the head pulled down on the bridle, clamping down on the tumbler.

And yep, following my efforts, the forward bridle screw stuck out enough to rub the inside of the cock, slowing it down. I just realized this yesterday while following along with that lock troubleshooting thread that's up now(bent cock). I sanded it so it was flush with the lock plate and now it works quite smooth and unhindered, and all bolts are tight. That's the short of it. I did other work in there too along the way, to the sear, tumbler, and bridle. It all started because I just didn't want to leave that bolt loose in there. It cost me a couple of days, but I learned some things about locks. In hindsight, maybe I should have just put a drop of removable Loctite on it?

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Peter White Bedford County rifles
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2019, 04:05:35 AM »
....... I don't like how some locks seem to have their bridles bent down with that bolt, unless the bolt is left loose. In my mind, it should be a 'shoulder bolt' and tightened to the shoulder, just as it contacts the bridle.... without bending it down.

Amen to that!

-Ron
Ron Winfield

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