Author Topic: New product! - Flintlocks  (Read 5234 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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New product! - Flintlocks
« on: September 02, 2019, 10:24:09 PM »
These locks are different than all other modern production locks.  Instead of using investment castings all critical parts are machined.  This results in a product that is far more precise and repeatable when compared to current available locks.  I would estimate the tolerances with machining are an order of magnitude (10X) better than that available with investment casting.

In addition, we have spent a tremendous amount of time developing a historically correct and stylistically beautiful lock that functions impeccably.  I must give credit to Frank House for offering critique and suggestions during this process.  Having someone to work with during this process proved invaluable.

So what does extremely fine tolerances and great design result in?  A lock that functions extremely smooth, free from many problems associated with current production locks and one that performs the required task very well.  The function of each lock is nearly indistinguishable to the next lock.  We’re obsessed with details and the results show.

This is the first lock we will be offering.  This represents a nice quality round-faced English lock from the 1760’s.  It’s not a copy of any particular lock, but rather fully designed to incorporate what we feel to be the best features of many reference pieces.  The first production run shown below are reserved for our Colonial rifle kit, but the next large run will be available for sale individually. We are estimating a 6 week wait for orders, but depending on demand, that may be longer. 

To summarize, our goal is to provide locks with impeccable, design, construction and function at an affordable price.  This has proven to be incredibly difficult, but it is our commitment to all of you.

Specifications:

-  Fully machined components: Lock plate, tumbler, sear, bridle, sear spring, mainspring, frizzen spring.
-  Investment castings used: Frizzen, cock and top jaw.  Note, all critical surfaces of the frizzen are machined or surface ground ( bottom of pan cover, sides of frizzen foot and frizzen pivot hole
   and toe of frizzen).  This ensures precise repeatable function.
-  Completely interchangeable parts.
-  Typical machined tolerances are in the range of +- .001” while critical locations such as pivots are held tighter.
-  Frizzens are 1095 steel with a surface carbon boost heat treatment to insure great function.
-  Springs designed for optimum performance and manufacturing process guarantees a high degree of consistency.
-  Bridle located with pins rather than screws for strength and precision.

A more detailed description of this lock will be shared on our website soon.  In addition, we will be producing a video introducing the lock.

A few final notes to mention…  All machining and lock production is done by us in-house.  This will improve availability as well as quality and allows us to offer these at an affordable price.

Thanks everybody for all the support!

All the best,
Jim and Katherine.




















« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 06:48:57 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2019, 10:47:13 PM »
Super nice!  I particularly like the lower bridle leg pinned into the plate.  This is like a "new golden age" of parts availability.
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Offline Jason C

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2019, 10:51:42 PM »
Cool! Reasonable price too.

Offline tallbear

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2019, 10:52:25 PM »
Nice looking lock Jim....looking forward to trying pone out!!!

Mitch

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2019, 10:55:51 PM »
Super nice!  I particularly like the lower bridle leg pinned into the plate.  This is like a "new golden age" of parts availability.

Thanks Eric.  The bridle is located with two pins.  The one at the bottom of the leg and another up near the top screw.  I think this is a far superior method of alignment than relying on loose fitting screws / holes.  I've found most good quality English locks to use this treatment.  In practice it works very well.  Our tolerances are very close and can't tolerate any misalignment.

All the best,
Jim

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2019, 10:59:35 PM »
Cool! Reasonable price too.

I'd like to point out that the price isn't necessarily indicative of the quality in this case.  I've had some of the best modern builders suggest selling these for considerably more, but we're trying very hard to produce a top-notch product at an affordable price.  We want to sell as many locks as we can we feel that pricing is important.  It's not easy to offer them at this price but we feel we can.

All the best,
Jim

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2019, 11:04:39 PM »
One final note and I'll shut up for a while.  Conveying quality is often very difficult especially to those not intimately familiar with the details of English locks and machining.  In simpler terms this is akin to the difference between pre-carved stocks from a duplicator versus those produced from a CNC machine.  They are truly in a different class.  This is not an insult directed towards those producing locks using largely investment cast parts, but rather just an attempt to convey the difference. 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2019, 11:17:04 PM »
Where are we seeing the price?  Not that I'm hung up on price but I must be having a 'duh' moment as I don't see it.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Jason C

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2019, 11:17:37 PM »
Cool! Reasonable price too.

I'd like to point out that the price isn't necessarily indicative of the quality in this case.  I've had some of the best modern builders suggest selling these for considerably more, but we're trying very hard to produce a top-notch product at an affordable price.  We want to sell as many locks as we can we feel that pricing is important.  It's not easy to offer them at this price but we feel we can.

All the best,
Jim
My comment was not directed at quality. I'm sure they are well built and well thought out. I've never ran a CNC machine, but as a computer programmer I see every day how much more precise things can be built vs a human.  I'm also sure you could sell these at a much higher price and appreciate the fact that you are being reasonable. I sincerely hope I can finish a couple of flintlocks that I'm working on now and buy one(or many) of your CNC locks down the road.

Offline Jason C

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2019, 11:18:25 PM »
Where are we seeing the price?  Not that I'm hung up on price but I must be having a 'duh' moment as I don't see it.
On his web site:
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/locks
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/locks/products/kibler-colonial-flintlock
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 11:21:50 PM by Jason C »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2019, 11:19:12 PM »
Gotcha!  Holy c**p that's giving it away.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2019, 11:21:19 PM »
I think it's particularly awesome that guys like you and Chris Laubach who really understand the possibilities inherent in this type of machining are utilizing it to take an archaic product with a real niche market to the next level.  Super freaking duper for the rest of us!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2019, 11:28:02 PM »
Thanks Eric.  We are including these with our Colonial kit with no change in price.  We're also trying to be what we feel is realistic about what price the market will support.  A talented custom builder might not think twice about paying double for this, but many beginners on a budget wouldn't consider it.  We believe the majority of parts like this are sold to people where price matters.  We've built our business on selling quality and quantity.  We wan't to continue with this approach.  It's not easy for us, as it puts a lot of strain on the manufacturing processes, but we feel it can be done.

Offline PPatch

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2019, 11:36:25 PM »
Awesome Jim, and beautiful to boot. I'll be ordering...  ;)

dave
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Offline smart dog

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2019, 11:36:42 PM »
Hi Jim,
Wonderful!  I love the design and agree with Eric that between you and Chris Laubach, we may be seeing a new era of component quality.  Jim would you mind informing me what the metal alloys are?  I assume the tumbler, sear, and bridle are O-1 and the frizzen some sort of high carbon steel?   Are the lock plates mild steel?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2019, 11:51:33 PM »
Hi Jim,
Wonderful!  I love the design and agree with Eric that between you and Chris Laubach, we may be seeing a new era of component quality.  Jim would you mind informing me what the metal alloys are?  I assume the tumbler, sear, and bridle are O-1 and the frizzen some sort of high carbon steel?   Are the lock plates mild steel?

dave

Thanks Dave.  The tumbler and sear are 1018 case hardened (pack hardened).  Frizzen is 1095 with carbon restore treatment.  Yes, the plates are mild steel.  Springs are currently machined from 6150.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline tiswell

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2019, 12:11:15 AM »
Jim,
   Will these lock fit in the lock mortice and trigger bar placement that you have in the early models of your colonial rifle? I think mine was #43 IIRC. If so put me on the list for one. I will visit the website to formalize order if they fit.

                                                                                                                                                        thanks, Bill Nash

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2019, 12:35:34 AM »
Jim and Catherine, this is wonderful news, and that lock really will go great with your Colonial kit.
Big congrats on this major leap into the future!
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2019, 12:37:32 AM »
Yes indeed -- a VERY reasonable price for such quality  ;). I think these will be flying off the shelf in the near future.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2019, 01:18:31 AM »
Jim,
   Will these lock fit in the lock mortice and trigger bar placement that you have in the early models of your colonial rifle? I think mine was #43 IIRC. If so put me on the list for one. I will visit the website to formalize order if they fit.

                                                                                                                                                        thanks, Bill Nash

Unfortunately, the new lock and the old lock have different plate profiles and are not interchangeable.
 
Katherine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2019, 01:20:48 AM »
Gold dollar work for a very low price when we consider what has
happened to the American dollar.Good job Jim and Katherine.

Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2019, 01:32:34 AM »
Hi Jim,
The reason I ask about the alloys is that when (and I say when not if) I use your locks, I will need to anneal the frizzens and any other parts for engraving. Thanks for the response and I did see on your website that the frizzens are 1095 steel, which is very manageable.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Don Steele

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2019, 01:53:19 AM »
Jim,
You continue to amaze. With Friendship right around the corner, I am wondering if any of your new locks will be there for folks to put hands on..??
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline Mauser06

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2019, 02:02:22 AM »
Very awesome!!!   I had a sneaking suspicion you'd be making locks once you got the metal CNC....I expected them to be for your own kits though!   



I think we all know what quality to expect.  I think we all know that you don't tolerate "OK" based on your work and your kits. 



You are absolutely right about pricing.  I am learning and growing as a gun stocker.  A build with a barrel inlet in a plank plus lock and mounts is in the $800 range.  Even a rifle or 2 a year and that is a fairly expensive "hobby" for us guys making guns for ourselves.  But at the same time, the lock is the heart of the rifle.  I build rifles to hunt with and shoot.  I want quality.   It's a great thing to see the pricing.   

I am nobody.....but I think the pricing is a smart move.  I would bet you sell a ton more at that price point than you would if you sold them for double...which at the end of the year means more business for you guys and we all win with another quality lock on the market!     



Like the other said....it's becoming a pretty exciting time to be a gun stocker.   



Offline bgf

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Re: New product! - Flintlocks
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2019, 02:14:55 AM »
Jim
I know you know more about metallurgy than I, so this is an honest question: What drove the selection of 1018 with case-hardening versus an alloy or "high-carbon" steel?

Aside from that curiosity, it looks like a real lock for the period, and I'm sure it will work like a champ.  Seen several of your kits now finished by locals, and the quality of the kits is obvious!