Author Topic: Coil spring for the patch box  (Read 1062 times)

Online Molly

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Coil spring for the patch box
« on: September 16, 2019, 02:24:07 PM »
Anyone ever see a patch box lid that pops up from a coil spring?  It was a first for me.  Who might have used them?

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2019, 02:49:52 PM »
Molly,

The first coil spring patent was issued in 1763, in England. Steel coil springs were patented in the USA in 1857. It's possible that the spring you are referring to, may be original to the rifle. It would have been "cutting edge" technology as the saying goes.

Do you have any photos?
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
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Offline Bill Madden

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2019, 03:51:42 PM »
Rifle 42 in Shumway's RCA Vol. 1 has such a spring. It is shown on page 187 of the volume.I believe Gusler has attributed the technology to door locks that used the same type of spring.
Bill

Online Molly

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2019, 03:55:51 PM »
Yes, however I do not have permission to share them.  The rifle is supposed to have been made around 1820 and the spring is not a finely crafted one.  It's rather large and crudely made.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 04:08:14 PM »
I'm assuming there is some type of pocket in to which the spring is fitted. If the spring, which I'm guessing is a compression spring, was added as a retrofit, you may be able to tell by any fitting provision required to accommodate the spring.

If you cannot share the photos, how about a sketch.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
      Lyndon B. Johnson Oct 21, 1964

Online Molly

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 04:49:59 PM »
The spring of rifle 42 is not the same.  This one has a box which opens in the "normal" way, hinged from the upper end.  The spring is coiled but compressed between the lid and the inside wood of the box.  There are only maybe 2 coils and it is a thick metal.  Cannot believe this is not the original spring given what I see in the photos.  It is positioned very near the hinge and it takes up quite a bit of the interior of the box.

My art wook would look like the drawings on some crude powder horn so I'm not sure about that.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 05:43:43 PM »
That's good info.

As you've seen the rifle first hand I'm sure it is the original spring fitted to the patchbox.

Whoever built the rifle was innovative.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
      Lyndon B. Johnson Oct 21, 1964

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 09:36:36 PM »
 ??? ??? ???... Molly,... I do believe I can safely say  that Ambrose  Lawing never used a coil spring there,... but ya never know,... !!!... let us know what you find out,... regards, CCF... 8) 8)

Online Molly

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2019, 01:28:05 AM »
Nope, sure not one of Ambrose's.

Here is a photo, with permission of the owner.

 




Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2019, 01:52:05 AM »
Molly,
You should not buy that rifle, it needs to be put away somewhere it won't influence traditional builders. Send me the contact info of the owner so I can "discuss" propery disposal of the rifle
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Online Molly

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2019, 02:16:51 AM »
Dennis:

I'll pass it along.....or maybe not  8).

I would love to have it but I doubt it will ever be available.  It is claimed to have been in the current owners family for "generations" and the family hales from the area where it was made.  I am hesitant to say a lot more at this time.  I would like to let the dust settle on the owners quest for info but in time I would like to open the discussion with some of those details as well as more photos.  I certainly would be open to a realistic offer but I do not feel it is a real valuable rifle.  Nice but not expensive.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2019, 02:17:43 AM »
That is outstanding. Very obviously original to the rifle as you stated earlier. I'm sure the owner is justifiably proud to have a unique piece like that.

Thank the owner for sharing the photos!

P.S. It almost looks like a Die Spring
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 02:35:50 AM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
      Lyndon B. Johnson Oct 21, 1964

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2019, 04:21:42 AM »
Wow, that's a whole lotta spring.  Thanks for sharing.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Joey R

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2019, 05:02:45 AM »
That spring will not only pop that lid it will also send a snickers bar air born.
Joey

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2019, 06:00:31 AM »
 :o :o :o.... Hmmmm,.... got any more pix,...??? ... looks like iron to me,.... lines incised around the box interesting, too .... sure would like to see that box closed and some pix of the breechplug tang, the lockbolt plate, the cheek-rest and trigger-guard,.... jes' sayin',....!!!.... CCF

Online Molly

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2019, 01:06:51 PM »
More pics to follow.  It is iron.  The finial is as unique as the spring.  It is carved into the wood and not made or metal.  A very simple semi-circle arched over the hinge and checkered.  The rifle has a signature on the barrel and while I cannot read it from the photos the owner and two well known authorities say it is Jno Wilson of Botetourt County, VA.

It belongs back in the county of it's origin.

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2019, 05:51:57 PM »
 8) 8) 8)... Good luck with her, Molly,... always nice to see a wayfaring child returned home,... !!!

Offline gibster

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2019, 06:11:57 PM »
I would be tempted to say that the spring, or another one, was originally in the upper left corner of the box cavity. Would have made more sense as it wouldn't have taken up as much space inside the box.

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2019, 06:28:06 PM »
 ;) ;)... I believe you are right, Gib,.. I can see the spot where was placed, when enlarging and high resolution photo,.... wonder how was anchored to the wood ....?

Offline bama

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2019, 07:40:06 PM »
That spring looks like good old southern ingenuity to me.  Very nice iron rifle, thanks for sharing and I hope you can share more photos of it.
Jim Parker

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Online Molly

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 01:55:55 AM »
Here are a couple.  Not all that good but it's about all I have.  Ever see a box like that?  Owner says "probably a reconversion not sure if with the original lock.











So how do I approach the guy with an offer?  Up front and direct I guess!  I'm thinking the wood is good, free of cracks etc.  Seems to be some wood missing behind the lock on the top.  Overall an "attic find" "in the balck".  Value???  $2500 to $3500 would probably be reasonable.  Maybe a little more if the condition warrants it.

To many I suspect it's not worth nearly that much but finding a signed Jno Wilson and with our interest in Botetourt County works it does strike a hot buttom.  I doubt the normal collector would see it for that much.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 02:17:26 AM by Molly »

Offline JTR

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 03:07:53 AM »
I think that's a fair price range.
These things used to be dirt cheap, but not so much any longer.

I doubt the lock is the original, as it doesn't fit that well.

Go for it!

John
John Robbins

Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 03:52:12 AM »
I think that's a fair price range.
These things used to be dirt cheap, but not so much any longer.

I doubt the lock is the original, as it doesn't fit that well.

Go for it!

John
I think you would do well anywhere in that price range. It's an original flint rifle and it appears to be in good confition.
Dennis
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Offline WESTbury

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 04:19:32 AM »

Up front and direct is the best approach. Very nice uncleaned, "UNTOUCHED" as they say, rifle. Hope you get it. Thanks for sharing the photos.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 04:23:19 AM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
      Lyndon B. Johnson Oct 21, 1964

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: Coil spring for the patch box
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2019, 05:17:52 AM »
Anyone ever see a patch box lid that pops up from a coil spring?  It was a first for me.  Who might have used them?

I have the badly damaged butt stock of a Kennedy Rifle (North Carolina) that has the engraved date of 1837.  One of the few parts that remained was the patch box.  This is the one part that was reasonably complete.   It has a coil spring to open the lid of the patch box.  At first I thought it was not original to the rifle, but apparently it is original.






The release is in the butt plate.  Something else that is unusual.