Author Topic: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?  (Read 691 times)

Online recurve

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 I'm old fashion and would like to have a hard copy to refer to on flintlock knowledge (not building just shooting) load work up loads etc.  What's your go to source?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2019, 01:31:27 AM »
Trial and error is my method. I have never had any two guns in the same caliber shoot the same load.
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Offline MuskratMike

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2019, 01:44:19 AM »
However if you are new to Flintlocks and want a book that covers all aspects buy:
"Flintlocks A Practical Guide for their Use and Appreciation" by Eric A. Bye
You can order it direct from Eric Bye
177 Main Street
North Springfield Vermont 05150
Just send him a note requesting the book and a check for $34.95. He will personally autograph it to you and pay the postage.
If you order it let him know you heard about it from:
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
McMinnville, Oregon
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 02:33:27 AM by MuskratMike »
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2019, 02:25:18 AM »
I don't think the old-timey folks had printed manuals for loadings did they?

Yes I had all the loading books for the unmentionables when I was doing that. But also optimized each loading to each gun. They were only "jumping off" points.

Same as with flinters and cap guns as I see it.  You can develop 14 loads for any rifle with variations on patch, ball, lube, and powder.  Some will work better than others, and that's the funnest chore around-sorting out which ones.

Hold to the Wind

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2019, 02:37:27 AM »
But as to load data:
Start with an equal amount of powder matching your caliber. Example if you shoot a .40 caliber start with 40 grains of your favorite powder and work up from there.
Oh by the way all of this is covered in the excellent book I mentioned in the above thread.
"Muskrat' Mike
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2019, 03:17:54 AM »
If you're looking for an easy answer, there isn't one.  there have been lots of articles, pamphlets, and books written on this subject, but in the end, you'll have to write your own.
So, here's how.  Take your rifle to the range, along with patching of various weights/thickness/materials, an adjustable powder measure, pure lead balls calibre specific, and a pencil and notepad.  Place your targets at 50 yds/meters...25 will tell you nothing except that you are an exceptional shot!  Start with what you consider, using your own intuition, a minimum load, load and shoot five shots into a target YOU CAN SEE WELL, and mark the load on the paper target.  Do the same thing again, changing ONLY ONE variable, such as the charge volume, or the ball diameter, or the patch thickness, or the patch lube.  Just one.  record the results again.  Keep this up until you run out of powder, lead or time.  Keep these records, and refer to them frequently.  It will take you many such trips to the range doing this, changing only one thing at a time, until you have come to the revelation that you have found the best load for that rifle!
Start over with the next rifle.

No one has written the book that will satisfy this journey.  The rest of the shooting/loading/data/technique will be found here, on ALR...free.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2019, 03:31:03 AM »
Looking for an authoritative resource? Read the above post. I’ll just add, use a good rest during this process so that third cup of coffee doesn’t hide that one great load.... you’re looking for the perfect load for that particular gun, the shooter shouldn’t be a factor. YMMV.
-Bob

My Highland ancestors were sentenced to ‘Transportation’ in lieu of death by King George after the Battle of Culloden. Serving time in Dixie since 1746.

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2019, 04:08:03 AM »
Before you all criticize Recurve for his post asking for help. He might be new to flintlocks, might have limited resources, few places to shoot, and no mentors. Most of us have been shooting "front stuffers" for decades but the purpose of this forum is to help all who ask for it.
I for one will be more than happy to take what time it takes to help a fellow longrifle shooter.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2019, 04:24:12 AM »
I don't see any criticism going on.  If he wants "starting load" suggestions I'm sure lots and lots of folks will chime in, and there are hundreds of dozens of variations on loading already printed here.  Plus we do "remote patch readings".  Targets analysis, etc. He can learn everyone's 'pet load' for a gun is, but odds are his gun will like something else. He may know all this. Maybe we let him get more specific.

Taylor just wrote the manual. Print that out and have it engraved on something, or just do it and create the best possible data for your applications. Enjoy the process.


Hold to the Wind

Online recurve

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2019, 05:43:24 AM »
Ok Lets start over :o
 I would like to find is a reference source so when I work up a load on one of my 4 flinters(all .50s,  boring I know)  I can cross to a load data page / ballistics and get an idle of what the speed and drop maybe for a given load/s ( it would be great if swiss vs goex so on). and when I do have a question I might be able to look it up. and it wouldn't hurt to find a book or two  on theory . Also just a great read like the Fred Bear/or G. Fred Asbell  or Wensel Brothers books are to archery. Is the Lyman book the best or some other . as you might have guessed by my handle, I'm great at trial and error ever try to tune and shoot several Recurves I shoot 6 different bows all tuned to different setups, but even trad archery has some great books on tuning , and other traditional past times (like knife making, Randle)

so back to Are there any good to great flintlock based books
And yes I enjoy working up my own loads(not looking for a short cut)
Thank you "Muskrat" Mike
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 05:55:01 AM by recurve »

Offline RichG

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2019, 06:32:31 AM »
a chronograph ?  ::)and a note book
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:17:04 AM by RichG »

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 07:26:46 AM »
It is my belief that the reason there are no definitive books for flintlocks spelling out everything under the sun, is because there are just too many variables involved in getting a muzzleloader to fire accurately. Especially, a flintlock.

If a person comes into flintlocks from centerfire modern cartridge shooting and reloading, then they expect the same level of precision to exist in flintlock muzzleloading.

It just ain't so.

The muzzleloading percentage of the overall firearms industry is quite small, and flintlocks occupy a very small portion of that percentage. Only matchlocks and other more primitive firearms occupy an even smaller percentage.

Chris Laubach and Jim Kibler are bringing CNC precision to locks. Modern muzzleloading barrels are quite good.

If Rice produced 100 barrels to match as closely as possible, and Jim put those barrels into 100 of his Colonial rifles, along with 100 of his new locks, and completed all 100 rifles to match as closely as was humanly possible; I have NO DOUBT in my ex-military mind that we here at ALR would find that there would be some ASTONISHING differences in getting all 100 of those rifles to shoot as accurately as possible.

This is why there are no books like you, me, and everyone else shooting flintlocks would like to own. IMO, it would take a book 4-5 times as thick as a 1960's Stoeger catalog to even approach setting down all the variables involved with flintlock rifles, pistols, and smoothbores. The average person involved in muzzleloading simply will not spend the kind of money that such a book would entail.

It would take the combined efforts of multiple shooters, to produce even a small version of the above theoretical book, it would have to be a labor of love on everyone's part, and the financial rewards would be nil.

I wish such a book(s) existed. It is surely needed, if we expect flintlock muzzleloading to prosper and grow.

JMHO

R.J.Bruce
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 07:33:54 AM »
Back in the 70s Lyman put out a black powder handbook with lots of load and velocity and drop information.  There’s one on eBay for $15 shipped. Look up Lyman Black Powder Handbook.







« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 04:53:16 PM by rich pierce »
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Robby

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 04:39:32 PM »


molon labe
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Offline 45-110

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2019, 08:28:16 PM »
I had my Lyman blackpowder handbook out the other day to look up some velocities. After all these years I still occasionally refer to it. Its just part of the games library.

Online recurve

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2019, 09:31:54 PM »
First of all I want THANK everyone here ALR the best and kindest responses!
    I have muzzle loaded for over 30+yrs but mostly inline cap (and even went to the smokeless powder savage muzzleloader 200yrds 2inch groups took 2 yrs of load development ) & 1 rock lock to play with 10yrs ago, traditions Tennessee 1/66 round ball a good shooter(80grns goexff) or  70grns swissff 018 pt 490ball(traded a knight muzzleloader for it)   and shoot recurves  not xbows or compounds.Retired to pa sold all my nonflint guns. now have 4 flinters 2 production 2 custom.  I am always searching for more knowledge on these rocklocks  and always start here for advise.

 Just remember no one lives forever , wright it down & pass it on. Trying to rediscover what was forgotten/lost is harder & sadder than passing knowledge to others .   
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 10:52:50 PM by recurve »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2019, 10:56:25 PM »
You'll find that the velocity and drop of your gun will have nothing to do with the information in any book. If velocity and drop are important I'd suggest a chronograph and a ruler. I never paid much attention to that sort of thing. What ever load shoots the most accurately is what I shoot, could care less how fast it's going. Loading these guns is not at all like loading modern ammunition.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online recurve

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2019, 02:55:38 AM »
It's like traditional  archery I want to hit what I'm looking at(speed be !@*%&@ ) but I can see the cast / drop of an arrow.

Offline Daryl

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2019, 10:53:58 PM »
The Lyman book is out of date as to black powder ballistics, EXCEPT, that if you have a chronograph, the drop charts in the back of the book are
still good data. 
The reason I say it is out of date, is the powder we have today, is much superior to what THEY had back in 1975 when the book hit the market.

For example:  Their .58 Zouave with 24" barrel and .015" patch with .562" ball produced 1,163fps with 80gr. of GO 2F (GO - Gearheart/Owen- predecessor of GOEX.
My Enfield, using a .020" ticking patch .562" ball and 75gr. GOEX 2F produced 1,308fps.  Indeed, Lyman's data or pre-1975 didn't match or exceed my chronographed velocity until
they put in 110gr. of 2F GO- and then they achieved 1,326fps - a whole 18fps faster.

Flintlock shooting is no different, really, than shooting a caplock - except for slightly slower ignition. The ballistics are very close (slight edge to the caplock), as long as the Flintlock's vent is not too large.
Daryl

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Offline MuskratMike

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2019, 11:57:54 PM »
Powders have changed, that is a fact not an opinion. I went to reload some CF cartridges using IMR 4350. My old max load for these in 1987 was 56.o grains (2700 FPS) now it's 54.5 to get virtually the same FPS. Powder companies have changed hands and even though this powder formula is the same (I actually talked to the manufacturer) the process is more refined and they now can get more out of each grain of powder.
Now saying this I am not sure how much of this reduction is due to product liability. I remember in the late 70's or early 80's all reloading books seemed at once to change their loading data to show a lesser MAX. load.
The moral of this story: Every time you buy a new lot of powder or it has been awhile since you bought powder recheck your loads before assuming it is the same. Smokeless or Black Powder the rules are the same.
The "Muskrat" has spoken.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline StevenV

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2019, 04:17:35 AM »
Recurve, glad you asked/ show interest in getting the proper load. Awhile back I posted some pictures on how and what to do to work up a load for said barrel, it was kicked off because not proper content pertaining to the ALR  rules. It was a shame because it explained everything about working up a load. No there is no book that I am aware of , the Lyman book would be the closest. Like Mike said once I have the best load ( shoots the tightest group) that is what I shoot at all distances. I don't change powder charge for different range distances. When working up a load for said barrel, wind flags are a must. Also in a .50cal. .490 is too small, the more lead closer to barrel caliber the better, but you showed that a .490 can shoot a decent group so what do I know. I shoot a .40cal. that loads a .403 ball with .020" teflon coated pillow ticking. In one of your targets the group was strung out. A general rule of thumb: shots stringing up and down you need more powder, shots stringing east and west you need less powder. You do wipe between shots I hope if not don't waste your time working up a load. Without wiping every shot will have a different compression behind it. This will result in different impact every time.         
StevenV

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2019, 06:40:04 PM »
I am lucky to have a brother named Daryl.  He has an encyclopedic mind when it comes to ballistics, and can recite chapter and verse ad nausium.
So, come to the big BC Rendezvous at Heffley Creek, British Columbia during the last week of August into and including the long weekend of September, and come and sit by the fire any and all evenings.  Bring a note book or a recording device, and simply ask him a question.  Then get ready for several hours of information that flows from him like a brook of knowledge.  He is partial to just about anything you might be drinking, too.  That way, you can create your own book.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Daryl

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2019, 08:10:21 PM »
 ;) you're making me blush, Taylor. But yes - you all are welcome at BC Rendezvous.
This was the line up for the Rendezvous just passed.

http://www.heffleycreekgunclub.com/files/2019_files/Rendezvous-2019.pdf

The schedule will be slightly different next year, with the plank shoot on Saturday afternoon,
instead of the quail walk at that time.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 08:14:47 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline little joe

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2019, 05:25:39 PM »
Muzzleloading  Shooting and  Winning With The Champions from the NMLRA

Offline Daryl

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Re: What's the best resourse Book out there for flintlock / load information ?
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2019, 08:34:35 PM »
Muzzleloading  Shooting and  Winning With The Champions from the NMLRA

Yes - that was a good one.  The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle was the Tome Taylor and I studied, back in the 70's
to discover how to load so wiping was not necessary.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V