Author Topic: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.  (Read 7883 times)

mrassII

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interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« on: July 30, 2008, 03:55:12 AM »
Looks unfired, bring back from WWII, I believe the old man said from a castle, Any Idea what it is worth,

Both barrels have a name that is tappered ,
BAYET FRES

A LIEGE















« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 03:58:02 AM by mrassII »

lew wetzel

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 04:16:30 AM »
that sure is a sweet dbl.shotgun.you say it came out of a castle.shouldnt be too hard to track down the maker.more than likely one of the royal smiths.

mrassII

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 04:52:57 AM »
I can not say for certain as I was not the one that brought it back and the old guy has gone form this work a long time ago and I can only repeat hearsay

lew wetzel

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 05:45:30 AM »
do you have any clue what region it came from,might help to narrow down the search..

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 07:26:36 AM »
It appears that the double was made in Liege, Belgium, probably by the Bayet Brothers. Looks like a post 1800 gun and is very nice. Not sure of what it's worth, but it may depend on how much someone wants it. You should be able to find the makers without much trouble.
Dick

Robin Hewitt

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 01:20:35 PM »
Hector Bayet, active 1856-85, of Liege traded as Bayet Freres from 1867.

I like it, but if it is him, why is it flint when it should be centre fire?  ;D

Offline Rick Sheets

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2008, 02:08:32 PM »
Hey Robin,
I thought you had a way to date an arm by the pinapple finial on the trigger guard. What do you think?
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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 05:48:46 PM »
Its flint because it was made for the export market in some less developed part of the world, most likely Africa or the Middle East. The Liege trade was still turning out various grades of these doubles, none of them all that good, well into the 20th century. Not all of the Belgian export guns were the junk that Dixie and others were selling back in the 60s but they aren't what would be considered European market quality either. There is much more emphasis on "fancy" than there is on function. If you look at the reprint of the 1911 ALFA catalog, they are even show there.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 05:53:40 PM by JV Puleo »

mrassII

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 05:53:52 PM »
Its flint because it was made for the export market in some less developed part of the world. The Liege trade was still turning out various grades of these doubles, none of them all that good, well into the 20th century. If you look at the reprint of the 1911 ALFA catalog, they are even show there.

Looks pretty good to me, how do you reckon they did such a great job with inlay of gold and engraving. 

Online Mike Brooks

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2008, 07:03:57 PM »
Quote
Looks pretty good to me, how do you reckon they did such a great job with inlay of gold and engraving.
When compared to British work this gun just doesn't measure up. The locks aren't very gracefull either, not surprising it was made at such a late date as clunky as it appears. I'd say it was made for the middle eastern trade.
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mrassII

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2008, 07:51:49 PM »
so any idea of value

Robin Hewitt

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 02:28:47 AM »
Hey Robin,
I thought you had a way to date an arm by the pinapple finial on the trigger guard. What do you think?
Rick

It's too blurry to see and I can only do English. It is big, got smaller later, can't tell :(

French style trigger bow with a pillar front as used by early Egg, gone by 1800... but the curves are slightly wrong, usually went with a stub trigger at the front but these things can get replaced over the years as fashion changes ???

The gold looks like leaf rather than inlay, could it have been made for an early one of us? A retro flintlock freak? In England the Victorians loved dressing up and re-enacting the civil war. This is why most of the surviving civil war armour was made 200 years after it was all over  ;D

Robin Hewitt

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2008, 02:37:03 AM »
  I'd say it was made for the middle eastern trade.

Not sure about that, Allah doesn't allow pictures of anything natural so decoration has to be geometric and unnatural. He might not approve of that grotesque carved under the stock  ;D

Robin Hewitt

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2008, 02:43:21 AM »
Incidentally, the barrels say Liege but the sling swivels say Austria. Could be a later addition, but only the Austrians put sling swivels on shotguns. 'Tis a puzzlement  ;D

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2008, 03:02:35 AM »
Its flint because it was made for the export market in some less developed part of the world. The Liege trade was still turning out various grades of these doubles, none of them all that good, well into the 20th century. If you look at the reprint of the 1911 ALFA catalog, they are even show there.

Looks pretty good to me, how do you reckon they did such a great job with inlay of gold and engraving. 

Its rough and I would be very surprised if that is any more than a flashing of gold from a gold/mercury based amalgam, if its gold at all. As far as the engraving goes, this was far cheaper in the late 19th century than it is today. In fact, Greener goes so far as to say something to the effect that "nothing brightens up a inexpensive gun like engraving." (I forget the exact quote) In his day, writing in the 1880s, there were lots of engravers and even the very good ones did not make a lot of money. In fact, virtually all gun engraving was done as a cottage trade. The engravers were rarely, if ever, identified and very rarely thought of as artists. The best engravers worked for the best makers and probably made a bit more than the family engraving guns next door, but often not much more. The whole business of "schools of engraving" or identifying a maker by the engraving has no validity with reference to 19th century Europe.

Online Mike Brooks

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2008, 03:09:25 PM »
  I'd say it was made for the middle eastern trade.

Not sure about that, Allah doesn't allow pictures of anything natural so decoration has to be geometric and unnatural. He might not approve of that grotesque carved under the stock  ;D
That fellow carved into the butt stock is surely of Mediterranean descent....maybe a Turk? Hooked nose, turban...... :-\
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Online Mike Brooks

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 03:12:17 PM »
so any idea of value
Not a clue. These don't show up that often in well preserved condition. It's worth what ever a collector will pay for it. These Mediterranean guns have a good following of collectors these days.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

mrassII

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Re: interesting flint lock 22 guage muzzle loader.
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2008, 10:18:04 PM »
cool
I am hoping to learn a lot more form you all and I thank you for all the info.

I wonder how a person would list this shotgun, gun broker maybe. How would you even begin to describe it. Also wonder how you would list it to get the most out of the search to get people to look at it.