Author Topic: WHAT exactly is this?  (Read 19086 times)

Offline wormey

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2009, 03:13:21 AM »
It has been many years since I have seen a nice old gun like this show up at a gun show for sale.  Mostly black  guns and junk now!  I hope you realize how fortunate you are in having attended this particular show on this particular day.  Somebody up there likes you!!!

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2009, 03:57:33 PM »
The standing breech looks original to me. The only odd thing to me about it is the square tang finial, other wise it is a very typical fully evolved standing breech. It even has a pin lug on the bottom of it that you can see with the pictures of the lock out. The "humped' look to it is right on for an early gun. The sear spring is very typical, even as late as the late 1760's. Did any one notice the tumbler and how flat it is where the mainspring rides on it? No caming action there, Mr. Chambers would not approve.... ;)
 The only way to know for sure about the originality of the tang would be to remove it and look for any evidence of a previous inlet of the original solid tang......but I doubt you'll find anything. If Harvey worked as late as the early 1720's this would be the earliest English gun yet found with a hooked breech as Capt. James already pointed out. This is a very important gun in English gun making.
Thanks for posting this Carl, very cool.
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Levy

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2009, 05:24:03 PM »
If the piece did indeed reside in Pensacola, FL for hundreds of years, that might help to explain the grooved frizzen.  Pensacola along with Florida was held by the Spanish until 1821.  There was that brief interlude of 20 years when it was owned by the British.  The Spanish loved to use the grooved frizzen on their firearms and the half-soling of the frizzen may reflect some Spanish influence.  It's a wonderful piece and you are indeed fortunate.

James Levy


   

Online Robert Wolfe

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2009, 05:59:32 PM »
Look how thin the stock is where the front lock bolt goes. Man - not much room for a ramrod there.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

eseabee1

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2009, 06:51:30 PM »
I was just wondering if it could have been made for on ship with the flared muzzle it would have made for easier loading with the movement I ihave seen some barrels like this when I was at parris island working in the museum. Aritfacts that have been recovered from around there..

J.D.

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2009, 07:05:28 PM »
Look how thin the stock is where the front lock bolt goes. Man - not much room for a ramrod there.

Notice, too,  how thin the forestock is and how the upper forearm follows the contour of the barrel to the muzzle. There also seems to be more thimble showing below the stock than I see on modern reproductions, too.

What a great opportunity to see such a wonderful, early piece. Thanks again for sharing.

The lock uses an odd/old system for fastening the sear spring to the plate. 

How so, Rich? Apparently I'm missing something? Please explain.

Thanks and God bless

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2009, 07:49:30 PM »
I was just wondering if it could have been made for on ship with the flared muzzle it would have made for easier loading with the movement I ihave seen some barrels like this when I was at parris island working in the museum. Aritfacts that have been recovered from around there..
Very common feature of 18th century English fowling guns.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2009, 07:50:41 PM »
Look how thin the stock is where the front lock bolt goes. Man - not much room for a ramrod there.
Typical 18th century English stock architecture. SLIM SLIM SLIM
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
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Offline hawknknife

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2009, 11:24:44 PM »
I have taken exact measurements on the barrel.  It is 37 and 1/8 inches long, .903 at the muzzle, waist is .766 14 inches from muzzle, then 1.275 at the breech.  It is a bit larger than I had guessed.  The forearm is paper thin at the top edge and looking down on the barrel from the top, it is hard to see wood as it is so close and thin...Thanks..Carl

Offline Telgan

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2009, 12:05:50 AM »
Thanks very much for the barrel measurements. Could you tell us how long the waist is and how far back from the muzzle it satrts? That would also give us the legth of the flaired portion of the barrel, forward of the waist to the muzzle. Just a few more details to make it complete. Thanks again. Tom

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2009, 02:44:49 AM »
I was just wondering if it could have been made for on ship with the flared muzzle it would have made for easier loading with the movement I ihave seen some barrels like this when I was at parris island working in the museum. Aritfacts that have been recovered from around there..
It's far too lightly and elegantly built to be a military piece. This gun was made by someone with a firm grasp of what the requirements for a sporting gun were--and still should be for that matter.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2009, 04:06:28 AM »
I agree it sure is a nice a sleek piece. The hardware has that bold appearance like other early 18th century pieces but the streamlined stock is ahead of it's time.
For those who have handled many originals....have you ever come across an English piece with the barrel lug mortises cut all the way through?

California Kid

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2009, 04:12:34 AM »
I'm curious about the barrel tennon mortices as well, anybody know?

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2009, 06:48:37 AM »
Given the thinness of the web, and the amount of use the fowler has had, even if the mortises were blind  when the piece was new, perhaps wear from the wiping stick has opened them up? At least one of them seems less than uniform to me.  Dan

FlintRock Rob

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2009, 11:57:06 AM »
I like how well the engraving on the tail of the lockplate matches the style and engraving of the sideplate. Very cool gun, thanks for posting!
-Rob

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2009, 03:34:54 PM »
Quote
The hardware has that bold appearance like other early 18th century pieces but the streamlined stock is ahead of it's time.
I agree, that's part of what is so cool about this gun. It reflects the strong influence of the Huguenots that had such an impact on English gunmaking. The English were making some real clunkers before the influx of Huguenot gunmakers.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline hawknknife

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2009, 05:10:39 PM »
Mr. Elgan, As the barrel profile goes, it is .903 at the face of the muzzle.  It then tapers down 14 inches to the narrow waist of .766.  This diameter continues for 7 inches, then flares to the breech which is 1.275 at the barrels rear..Hope that helps..Carl

jwh1947

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2009, 06:22:49 PM »
Mike Brooks...my mind is in the same channel as yours.  I can't dismiss French influence.  Not that this as anything to do with this neat firearm, but examine the work of George Fainot, early Lancaster builder, par excellence. Fainot was a French Huguenot immigrant to America.  There's the result of French training and frontier necessity seen in one man's work.  I once owned a fowler that was quite similar to yours, though not as nice.  It had a chicken proofmark on the barrel.  If I am not mistaken, this suggests French origin.  I'm no authority on these, but isn't that right barrel proof...the "crown V" an early verified proofmark from Tower of London?  Wayne

Offline James Rogers

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2009, 07:28:48 PM »
It's hard to dismiss French influence in any English gunmaking after 1700. Most of the best "English " gunmakers by the early 1700's were French Hugenouts or some with Dutch influence to their backgrounds. The French brought with them the continental style and their innovations. They just toned it down a bit for the more reserved English. The crown/V is the  English view mark of the Gunmakers Company.

Offline G-Man

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2009, 07:35:04 PM »
Charles II was raised in France and brought a lot of French influence (including the popularity of bird shooting) to England with the restoration in the 1660s.

This is a nice piece - I agree with Mike - pre-1740, most likely 1720s or 30s - still retains the continental influence in the guard but the rest of Georgian architercture and mounts are getting pretty evolved.  After 1740 - the hardware loses most of the French or Continental look and pretty much screams "Rule Brittania"....

Nice gun

Guy

Offline James Rogers

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2009, 07:48:30 PM »
Robert Harvey ,
Apprenticed to Henry Anthonison and turned over to John Dafte in 1691. Freedom in the Gunmakers Company in 1702. Master in 1725, Worked for Ordnance 1703-06, Made fine silver mounted pistols. , died 1734

(The Queen Anne Pistol 1660-1780, Burgoyne)

Offline G-Man

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2009, 09:06:12 PM »
I've always wondered about Henry Anthonison - the name sounds like it has French origins - interestingly, John Harman apprenticed with him as well, if I recall correctly.

All the other observations - the slim lines etc - this is the way a Georgian period fowler should be - everything tapers from the area right behind the cock - forward and back, and everything is visually balanced.  Simple sophistication in the architecture and decoration.

 The muzzle bore is often greater than the barrel OD at the waist.  You see really no wood on the forend when viewed from above - the stock and barrel form almost a figure 8 in cross section.  No true large flat surfaces anywhere to break up the flow. 

From what I've read and seen, don't assume the military officer's pieces were always bulkier.  The military pieces made as officer's fusils were often made along the same lines as the sporting guns by the finest shops, but often had the wood cut back at the muzzle and a lug fitted for a bayonet.  In England at the time amongst the better off,  first born son inherited the land and title, second son often received a purchased commission in the military, third often went to the clergy.  After the warrant (I think it was in the 1740s) officers were supposed to provide their own firearms, built to certain general guidelines, but still a lot of latitude,  in lieu of the earlier halberd.  So the best London makers made up sporting guns and officer's fusils along the same patterns.

Guy
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 10:55:56 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline debnal

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2009, 06:45:50 AM »
Having read the last few postings, I now look at the gun in a little different light. The 37 inch barrel might argue for an officer's fusil. I collect fowlers and the ones I have seen from that period have LONG barrels. I have had some early English pieces and they have all had long barrels. I had a Wilson fowler that had a 58 inch barrel. My American fowlers have long barrels. But I am not very familiar with early English fowlers. Is the 37 inch barrel compatible with fowling pieces of that period?
Al

Offline G-Man

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2009, 09:58:55 AM »
37 inch barrel is very common range for Georgian period bird guns as well.  They made them longer too.

Guy

Offline James Rogers

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Re: WHAT exactly is this?
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2009, 11:58:46 AM »
Having read the last few postings, I now look at the gun in a little different light. The 37 inch barrel might argue for an officer's fusil. I collect fowlers and the ones I have seen from that period have LONG barrels. I have had some early English pieces and they have all had long barrels. I had a Wilson fowler that had a 58 inch barrel. My American fowlers have long barrels. But I am not very familiar with early English fowlers. Is the 37 inch barrel compatible with fowling pieces of that period?
Al

The long barreled guns lent themselves more to waterfowling while the shorter barreled guns in the length range of this piece were in use for general sport shooting of partridge and the like.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 11:59:48 AM by Capt. Jas. »