Author Topic: Any Southern Fowlers out there?  (Read 19177 times)

Offline LynnC

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2009, 08:28:50 AM »
Studying the pics, I notice the wall thickness at the muzzle looks pretty hefty.

But boy is the wood thin at the muzzle!

The gun looks really slim.  Canyou estimate weight?  Any barrel dimensions you might pass along to us?

Really interesting piece..........Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2009, 12:41:19 PM »
What a most unique piece.
I took notice of the barrel wall thickness as well.
Can't see how anyone could ever build or use that gun as a "fowler" though.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 12:44:02 PM by Capt. Jas. »

Offline G-Man

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2009, 03:13:11 PM »
The triggerguard and architecture have a lot of similarity to the work of Jacob Young (yeah, I know, here I go about Jacob Young again - sorry - he is my favorite gunsmith) and some related gunsmiths who worked in Middle Tennessee up into Central Kentucky in the early 1800s.  The vent pick inlay in the toe, pointed tang, wrist inlay, use of escutcheons, use of extremely fine curly maple, and engraving style do as well.  Very similar feel to the Woodfork rifle.  The two piece sideplate looks more like Tennessee though.  In any event that is a beautiful piece.  

Jacob Young was related to the famous Bryant family of gunsmiths - perhaps "FB" was a Bryant?  Perhaps a piece stocked up by Jacob for a Bryant shop?   Hopefully Tansleman will see this and give his thoughts.

Guy
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 05:36:46 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2009, 04:57:50 PM »
Quote
Has T Dennis never seen a smoothbore by the Gillespie gunmakers?

What about Mr Briggs, Have you by chance seen any southern smoothbores?

Others?

I appreciate your input............................Lynn
No I haven't, the closest was an old French musket that was converted into a breech loading shotgun but this was real late definitely after the war between the states and probably in the 1870's.

I doubt very much that any of the Gillespie's ever made fowlers or smoothbores.  I feel sure one of them would have turned up by now.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline LynnC

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2009, 06:10:29 PM »
Thanks Dennis

Well maybe one day that elusive fowler will turn up.
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2009, 07:26:11 PM »
Guy,  Just got your e-mail and looked at the smooth bore. I'll take some time with the pictures later this evening, but first impression... no relationship with the Bryan (not Bryant) shop in Fayette Co., KY.  At first blush, it appears to have more North Carolina detail than from other areas. I'll take a closer look later and give you my thoughts.  Dick, you have a great and most interesting gun there.  Shelby Gallien

Offline G-Man

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2009, 07:32:36 PM »
Hi Shelby - I took a closer look at Dick's initial description and see that he does have it described as possibly a North Carolina piece - in either case - wherever it was made - what nice gun!

Guy 

Offline Collector

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2009, 11:49:06 PM »
Dick,  On a technicality, wouldn't your piece be more 'properly' termed a smooth-rifle, it having a rear sight and all?  Hard to tell, octagon-to-round but, swamped or tapered (?) with/without (?) a wedding band transition?  Is the bore, at the end of the barrel somewhat oblong due to usage?  Man, if that piece was any thinner (trimmer), it would only have one side!  ;D  Gaylord 

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2009, 07:46:25 PM »
Hi Folks-Glad that the jpgs made it on to the site, though not all did. There was a shot of the rear sight and the transition band on the barrel along with a close up of the trigger guard. I am pleased that you like what you see. Gives support to my feelings about the old gun.
An origin in North Carolina seemed the most reasonable guess, though it is somewhat less sophisticated than most Carolina guns I have seen. If it should turn out to be a Kentucky made rifle, so much the better. Guess that the 'f.B' mark contains the clues to where it was made.
The length of the half round barrel is 49 inches and the octagonal portion is 14 inches.
There is a pronounced flare at the nose and the bore is slightly off center. It is a thick barrel, but the weight is only about 8 pounds, given the paucity of wood in the stock.
The pull is 14 inches.
Butt stock thickness is an inch and a quarter.
Bore is about .69 caliber.
Tang has two screws and is three and a half inches long.
What else would you like to know?
I have always regarded the gun as a 'smooth rifle', but in a spirited discussion with the scholarly JTR, I was given to understand that it is a fowler as it has no rifling and no patch box. So, it is presented here as a 'fowler/smooth rifle' and you can draw your own conclusions about it, (unless you happen to talk to JTR).
About sights: I have guns that are clearly fowlers from the North East and they have sights. There don't seem to be any hard and fast facts/rules on establishing what category these borderline non rifled guns fall into, (and some of those have straight rifling). So......
My thanks to all of you for your comments and interest.
Regards-Dick







Offline JTR

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2009, 11:04:40 PM »
I said What? All I did was post the pics cause my good Old buddy is seriously computer challenged. ::)
And now he tries to blame me for his confusion.  :o

John
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2009, 07:35:54 AM »
I must disagree on one point

Your comment about if it be from Kentucky so much the better

It definately has NC and Tenn charicteristics

If it be NC/TN, somuch the Rarer! ;)

Thanks again for the pics.......Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline LynnC

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2009, 06:29:18 AM »
Just want to say thanks again to those that contributed and will print this out for my meager file.

Will pose the question again sometime late next year ;)

Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline G-Man

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2009, 05:43:20 AM »
I don't think it's a Kentucky piece either, but I do think it might be associated with the same group of gunsmiths that Jacob Young was tied with - the guard especially,  and the architectural details give it a very similar feel.  He is known to have worked in Middle Tennessee near Sparta and came from North Carolina if I am not mistaken. So a mix of Tennessee and Carolina features on a gun associated with this group of gunsmiths would not be surprising- it could have originated on either side of the mountains. 

Is it also possible that "FB" was the maker of a much earlier gun?  i.e. could this even be a much earlier barrel from a gun brought into the western North Carolina Appalchian or Tennessee/Cumberland frontier region during the early settlement period, restocked there by a very good gunmaker in the early 19th century? 

In any case, it is a really neat piece.  Thanks for sharing the photos

Guy

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2009, 12:50:44 AM »
Since smooth rifles might be the closest thing to fowlers in some southern states, I do have one piece that might qualify. It's an early percussion smooth bore made in Kentucky with 48" barrel, no rifling, no cheekpiece, single trigger with grip rail on guard. The barrel is octagon its full length, with rifle sights. The top flat is engraved in script "S. Mathis" for Samuel Mathis. He trained under Bardstown gunsmith David Weller in Nelson county (was brother of Weller's wife Mary Mathis), and later moved to more western Logan county in Kentucky. This smooth bore was undoubtedly made in Nelson county before the move, based on its mounts and a couple of Bardstown-type silver forestock inlays. Large caliber, don't recall exactly, but probably .55-.60 at least, way too big for a ball in those somewhat later days ca. 1835. So perhaps this gun, like Dick's fine piece, was about as close to a fowler as could be found in many southern states. Shelby Gallien

Offline LynnC

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2009, 07:47:41 AM »
Shelby,
Sounds like another interesting gun.

What is the defining line between the fowler and the smooth rifle?

I think the crossover point may be the octagon to round barrel though Dick's gun fits the rifle catagory in most every other way.

Then again, Shelby's has no cheek piece, a fowler feature!

The southern fowler may not look at all like its north eastern cousin.........
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2009, 07:33:34 PM »
The "defining line" if there is one, is probably the barrel thickness. Fowlers traditionally have a thin walled barrel used only with shot, while more versatile smooth rifles have thick walled barrels that handle shot, but also a ball if need be.

Southern guns don't always fit the mold of eastern pieces. We may be looking at a regional differentiation here. Southern areas often seemed to get "more value" or more flexibility out of their products, perhaps due in part to a somewhat lower standard of living for many of its citizens compared to the average northern citizen. Thus the smooth rifle that did two functions, shot for small game and ball for larger game, was more efficient (and lower cost) than having two different, and individually more restricted, firearms.  Perhaps a wealthy southern planter or merchant could afford both types of arms, but the average man would more likely turn to the smooth rifle, the best of both worlds for him, for local use.

The variations in details, such as octagon-to-round barrel vs. octagon barrel, cheek vs. no cheek, etc., may be simply internal regional preferences in the south. The key seems to be longer barrels than comparable rifles of the day, and a smooth bore often somewhat larger than bores in its rifled counterparts.  I would also think that larger game lasted longer in the south than the eastern states, so the smooth rifle or smooth bore continued to have value, while back east most big game was gone, and the fowler with shot could handle most of the small stuff that was left. Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:26:29 PM by Tanselman »

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2009, 12:45:26 AM »
Well stated, Shelby, well stated!
Dick

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2009, 01:55:05 AM »
The key seems to be longer barrels than comparable rifles of the day, and a smooth bore often somewhat larger than bores in its rifled counterparts.  

There were all kinds of fowling pieces. the ones we most associate with the north are water fowling guns with long barrels. A common sporting gun for partridge and general shooting could have a 38-40" barrel as is seen on numerous originals.

I think as a general rule in the south, fowling pieces were brought in by export due to cost. I believe there is a very small window if any between these export fowling guns, which could be had in various qualities and the later hardware variety shotgun.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2009, 05:26:55 AM »
I think the original question was about the possibility of fowlers being made in the southern states by local gunmakers, and if so, then what did they look like, since the poster had not seen any. So we have side-stepped the issue of imported fowlers in the southen states, and focused on guns made by southern gunsmiths that might be considered a type of fowler to their owner/users.

The last responder brought up an interesting issue, i.e. the long barrels for water fowl, and shorter barrels for inland sport shooting.... at least on imported English fowlers. That poses the question of why so many of the known fowlers made in PA by Kentucky rifle makers, or even these southern smooth rifles that we think were used as fowlers, have longer barrels usually 48" or more. Were they all used for shooting over water? I'd guess not, and that they were used for small game that was sitting still, rather than taking flight... which was probably the most common way of taking small game for the table, whether feathered or furred, in the interior states.  Shelby Gallien

Offline LynnC

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Re: Any Southern Fowlers out there?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2009, 06:48:05 AM »
I have very much enjoyed the additional comments!

Thanks to Shelby for keeping the dicussion on course.

Yes, I'm hoping to discover what a southern mountain gunsmith made fowler might have looked like.

So far, it would seem that it will look very much like its rifled sibling!

Thanks and please continue!  I'm learning a lot....
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......