Author Topic: Joseph Long flintlock rifle  (Read 20893 times)

jwh1947

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2009, 07:55:37 PM »
Some would argue that we are all without president right now.  Sorry, the English teacher coming out in me; sometimes it just can't be suppressed.  As I said in another thread, you could take this lock, toss it in the river, and you'd still have a super rifle.  The art and architecture are the principal issues for most experienced collectors.  An entirely "as-issued" lock just makes the package especially rare and cool.  Great gun.

 The boys up the river probably are having heart palpitations over this specimen.  I think the reason Joe did such a nice job on this one was that he had a Harrisburg gun he was trying to copy.   

Hey Don, now that I have your attention, I have a complaint on your 46 1/2" light Dickert. Five shots, off the bags at 100 meters, 4 shots crack the same hole but I have one flyer an inch out.  I think I have a bad barrel.  Would you recommend recrowning it with a Dremel tool or bringing it back for a replacement? Wayne

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2009, 08:25:51 PM »
Quote
Five shots, off the bags at 100 meters, 4 shots crack the same hole but I have one flyer an inch out.
The Law of Random Radial Dispersion states that it is impossible to put all shots thru the "same hole" with a rested gun.
Dave Kanger

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Offline JTR

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2009, 11:08:58 PM »
I'm not sure about ol' Dons comment here;

"You would "merely" remove the tang bolt and the slide the barrel
rearward to unhook it from the stock......that is probably why you would see broken stocks...........Don"

I believe you remove the tang bolt and slide the barrel Forward.

Maybe that's why Don see's so many broken stocks!  ;D

John
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 11:09:31 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline bcowern

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2009, 12:01:40 AM »
Joseph Long lived 1779 - 1872. Edith Cooper states that Joseph Long made flintlocks along with cap guns until 1840. I am guessing, but if Joseph Long underwent an apprenticeship, he might have been capable of producing a finished firearm as early as his mid teenage years.  Would it be likely that he was self-taught?  Does anybody know just what time period Joseph Long actually produced rifles?

A collector of antique firearms told me that locks were not marked WARRANTED until 1840. Can anyone confirm this?


Regards,
Bradford

jwh1947

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2009, 01:02:41 AM »
TOF, I break rules daily, sometimes break records, too.  My tale is consistent with the Principles of Blatant Blustering.  I've heard such wild stories about "my gun and my accuracy at hundreds of yards" that I just needed to tell everybody about one of our regular range days.  Incidentally, we in Harrisburg shoot at meters and allow our competitors to shoot at yards.  It is a sort of handicap that we extend to our guests from out of town to help even things out.  The last time we lost was 1951 when unexpected gusts of wind came by as we were squeezing off offhand shots at 500 yards.  Some of us actually had shots out of the bull on that day.  Bull running smoothly today. JWH
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 06:58:03 AM by jwh1947 »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2009, 05:34:15 AM »
John....now you have me thinking, I don't recall if you pulled or pushed on the barrel, and I hate like heck to go down and
take mine apart just for argument sake.   As for that agitator from Harrisburg, I'll be glad when the bottle is empty and we
can get some sensible talk out of him......Joe Long copying a Harrisburg gun?  ha, ha, ha, ha............Don

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2009, 03:33:13 PM »
Wayne......as for your shooting prowess, pretty good.  But, I have a feeling it is like my trap shooting now.   I used to be
a pretty good trap shooter, but, now if I run 25 straight I have to say to myself, "what did I do wrong?"     Don

Offline Spotz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2009, 04:08:58 AM »
Don--

I haven't stripped a Long for quite a while, but if I am remembering correctly, I think you pull back when pulling out a barrel.  You are going to say that is odd, but when they cut down a percussion period barrel, they often sawed off the business end instead of the typical cut off and set back (like a percussion to flint conversion).  By doing so, the distances didn't change between the tang and rear pin and forward pins.  I think they then cut open the hook so it was open in the front, for easy, rearward removal.  By doing this, only the front lug had to be moved if they cut the barrel down behind the most foreward pin and lug. 

I wonder whether all Long lugs are open or only the ones that were shortened?  Most Long barrels are 38 to 40 inches, but for those that are 35 to 37, you often encounter equal inlay spacing.  I query whether Long only made the lugs open later in years when making repairs or if he always built them with an open lug?  Did he really build rifles with only a 35" barrel?  Were many of the Long barrels originally 40 inches and most have been cut?  Compare Cooper Plate Nos. 22 v. 23; and, No. 14 v. 16.  Or, did he just build hook lugs and there is no reasoning behind it, except for ease in cleaning?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2009, 04:34:44 AM »
How on earth can you pull a barrel rearward with the breech hard against the stock there? Do you bend the stock down at the breech so that the barrel clears the wood, then pull it back?  I doubt it!  I'd guess the barrel must be moved forward to disengage the pins, and that the hook staples are open along their back ends for this purpose.
Enlighten me, please.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2009, 03:09:32 PM »
Spotzy.....If you look at Joe Long rifles, take note that almost all of the barrel pins are hidden under inlays.   This kind of
shoots your thought about opening those barrel hangers later.   Actually, if you intend to make a hanger in an "L" shape
you would do it differently than installing a staple.    If you remove one leg of a staple, it will be rather useless.  I will
have to take mine apart, just to satisfy my curiosity, but I still think you have to pull the barrel rearward to remove it.  I
know, Taylor, this sounds kind of stupid, but I think this is the way they were made.   I will have to take note of these items the next time I study some Joe Long rifles.  If someone were to shorten a barrel on a Long rifle, and this seemed to
be a common practice, the guy that did it would either have to make new "L" shaped hangers and reposition them, or
merely install pins thru the stock which one could easily see.   For all of you guys out there that own a Long rifle, check this out.   I think I can say that all of the Joe Long rifles I have looked at have inlays out along the barrel, mainly to hide
those barrel pins.  So many times we look at a gun and admire the whole thing, but fail to look at more of the details, such as these barrel pins....lets check them out, and report back......thanks...........Don

Offline Curtis

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2009, 08:13:20 PM »
If you remove the barrel by pushing rearward, would the barrel remove itself under recoil?  ::)
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Offline JTR

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2009, 11:30:11 PM »
Of the two Longs I had, one was a swivel breech (and a great gun I might add) and I think the other just had regular barrel pins.
Just recently though I have seen a H. Carlile rifle with hidden pins,,,, and you pushed the barrel forward to remove it.

So I'll stand by my first 'forward' comment, and echo Taylor in how in the dickens can you push the barrel rearward with the breech up against the wood, not to mention the tang?

This is assuming that pushing it forward means toward the muzzle,,, and pushing it back means toward the butt?

I'll await further reports!

John
John Robbins

Offline Spotz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2009, 03:02:07 AM »
Now you have me doubting Don and my post about removing the barrel rearward.  No, the breech is not "bendable" but I would like to see someone try that.  Once you pull the tang screw, I think there is enough "play" in the hooks to pull up and then slide back.  I don't have the rifle handy I am thinking of or I would pull it apart and add some certainty to this discussion.

When, saying that you pull back or rearward, we are in fact saying that you pull toward the butt.  I agree that it might seem worthless to open up a hanger, but you would not have to reposition the hanger if you cut the barrel off at the muzzle, which is what I see on many Long (and other Upper Susquehanna rifles).  Yes, some are shortened from the tang and this would require repositioning of the hangers or hooks.  Before we go too far down this path, let's see what Don turns up in disassembling a Long.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2009, 04:30:51 AM »
I did look at my Joe Long rifle but have not yet tried to take it apart.    It does have three inlays out along each side of the barrel, and no other pin holes showing.   It does appear that the barrel was shortened at the muzzle.   I will have to
measure it and try to determine how much may have been cut off.   I may also stop at a house and walk in with a pocket
full of hundred dollar bills and try to buy that Joe Long I found several weeks ago.   I think if I wave greenbacks at them
it should do the trick.   It does need some restoration, but is far from a basket case.   A few pieces of wood split out along
the barrel, and a strange conditon below the lock, not really sure how I would approach that.  Will let you know how I
make out............Don

Offline Loudy

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2009, 01:48:38 AM »
Bradford,

Great looking Joe Long rifle.  Thanks for sharing the photos.  I've never had a chance to take-down a Joe Long rifle myself.  However, I did come across a reference to the "blind pin & hook" method of fastening a stock to a barrel in William Buchele & George Shumway's classic gun building book entitled "Recreating the American Longrifle" p. 37.

Some old gunsmiths of Bedford County, Pennsylvania, and in the nearby Potomac valley of Maryland and Virginia used a blind pin and hook to fasten the stock to the barrel.  This was done in the late flint and percussion periods when parallel-sided barrels were being used.  Hooks more or less like loops with the rear leg cut off were fastened under the barrel.  Transverse pins were put through the stock and the ends of these pins were hidden with silver inlays.  To put the barrel in place it was set in the channel a little ahead of the final position and then it was slid back so that the hooks engaged the pins. 

Interesting topic.  Hopefully someone can post photos of an original "blind pin & hook" barrel. 

Mark Loudenslager   

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2009, 09:44:53 PM »
Quote
Hopefully someone can post photos of an original "blind pin & hook" barrel.
 
Restock of an original T. Barns, Greensburg, Indiana.
The pin is concealed within the pewter nosecap.  To remove the barrel, the screw is removed from the tang.  You grasp the forestock with the butt facing away from you and pull the barrel BACK and up.


The pin and hook layout look like this.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2009, 03:19:08 PM »
Guess what?   I stopped by this friends house, the one that has the Joe Long rifle, with $100 bills in my pocket, and the
wife said, "well, my son would like to have it, sorry".     However, there might still be a chance.  I know the son and it shouldn't be too long before he wants money, and so it goes.................Don

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2009, 07:15:28 PM »
M Smith sent me a photo of a barrel off an original George Young rifle that has the hook facing rearward, which explains Don's statement about pulling the barrel BACK to remove it.

Dave Kanger

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2009, 11:09:02 PM »
Well it is an interesting  :o picture but I don't see how it could work with anything other than a removable pin?? ???    I have made a couple that looked like that too....on accident :'( :'(
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2009, 01:29:23 AM »
To remove the barrel you would have to first, remove the lock, then the tang bolt.   You would then have to "bend" the
stock down until the barrel cleared the wood at the breech, then pull back on the barrel to unhook it.   I guess that is why
you occassionally find guns with broken stocks...........Don

Offline JTR

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2009, 01:55:26 AM »
So you took your Joe Long apart, and that's the way it comes apart? ::)

The pic that TOF posted looks like a broken staple underlug.

I guess Henry Carlile had a better idea in pushing the barrel forward to remove it.

John :D
John Robbins

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Joseph Long flintlock rifle
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2009, 08:25:27 AM »
I find it hard to believe an original gun would be made with such a difficult method of removing the barrel.... and dangerous to the stock. Those old guys who made these guns were just too smart for that kind of awkward "reverse engineering." I'd like to know if the George Young gun in the "M. Smith" photo above had permanent pins (so barrel had to be slid to remove), or typical removable pins. I'd bet they were removable pins, and the barrel was removed in the normal manner, despite the non-standard "open" barrel loops.  All the permanent pin guns I've seen have had the barrel slide forward (open end of barrel loops in opposite direction), as would be expected. Shelby Gallien