Author Topic: Question on barrel length and harmonics  (Read 17494 times)

Offline Artificer

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Question on barrel length and harmonics
« on: September 25, 2009, 10:49:48 PM »
I hope Daryl will understand I have to use some modern gun experience and references to ask this question about muzzle loading barrels.

From over three decades of working on or building M40A1 sniper rifles, NM M1 and M14 rifles and other competition rifles, I'm a true believer in getting the harmonics and length of barrel correct for the caliber, load and/or bullet used.

We defined harmonics as the vibration of the barrel as the bullet is traveling down the bore.  The vibration acts like waves.  We have found that a barrel is most accurate when the bullet exits the bore when the wave is at the bottom of it's curving up and down movement.   That either means you have to cut the barrel to the length of where the wave is at the bottom or change the load and bullet.  I admit I'm not absolutely certain this applies equally to muzzleloading barrels as much, but basic physical laws don't change whether it's a modern or muzzleloading barrel.

We get into something along with that and it's known as negative nodes of vibration will hurt accuracy due to the interuption of the vibrational waves.  A negative node of vibration is set up on a muzzleloading barrel by the pins or keys used to attach it to the stock.  I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty certain that most ML barrels aren't affected too much by the negative nodes of vibrations of most pins and many keys.  I also know that sometimes the key used to almost imperceptably bend barrels will sometimes make them shoot better if there is not too much stress on the barrel.

So what I'm asking is has there ever been testing done with a muzzleloading barrel to see what length is best for harmonics for the patched round ball in a certain caliber? 

I realize there are some real problems associated with that for the barrels we commonly use on American Long Rifles and other 18th century rifles and that's part of the reason I'm asking.  You can't just cut off an inch of barrel at a time to shoot and test a swamped barrel as the change of the outside dimensions will most likely cause more differences with harmonics than just cutting off a barrel that has pretty much the same outside dimensions all the way down the barrel.

I also realize that changing ball size, patch size and powder type and volume will make huge differences in the harmonics of a barrel, as well.  I can't tell you how many times over the years I've used the examples of muzzleloading to explain these things to modern gun shooters who have never gone through a lot of testing to find the best bullet, patch and powder load for a rifle.   ML shooters have a distinct practical advantage in this regard as it's far easier for someone with a ML background to understand why a 168 grain match bullet works better in his Garand than a 173 grain match bullet does. 

So to tie this up for a muzzleloading barrel question, what I'm looking for is there such a thing as the best length and shape of barrel (along with the rifling twist of course) that makes the barrel more inherently accurate for round balls in each caliber?  IOW, does a 42" barrel (or whatever length and shape may be "best') in .45 caliber have an advantage over a 34", 36", 40", 42" or 44" barrel for barrel harmonics?   

Thanks in advance, Gus

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 11:28:09 PM »
Quote
We defined harmonics as the vibration of the barrel as the bullet is traveling down the bore.  The vibration acts like waves.  We have found that a barrel is most accurate when the bullet exits the bore when the wave is at the bottom of it's curving up and down movement.   That either means you have to cut the barrel to the length of where the wave is at the bottom or change the load and bullet.

This was discussed on the old MLML, long before the "message board" format even existed.....maybe around 1996.  We had a number of engineers of various disciplines who worked this out mathematically, for a straight barrel.  The result was that a 42" barrel was the "ideal length" for a muzzleloader.

I don't remember much else about the discussion except that we thought it to be extremely coincidental that this was the average length used by the "old timers."

I still have the archives of that list, except it is comprised of years of text based emails and almost impossible to search.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2009, 12:42:45 AM »
Thank you for the information.   I wasn't around the original board until a few years after 1996, so I missed it.

No need dig through the archives.  It makes sense that through trial and error the original gunsmiths found what length was best and used that the most often.

Just one more question, though.  Does that also go for swamped barrels to a degree or is it confined to purely straight barrels?

Offline JTR

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2009, 01:58:09 AM »
I certinly can't answer this question with any degree of expertese, but when I was shooting 22 rimfire rifles in competition we used adjustable barrel weights on the muzzle to try to tune the harmonics.
I wonder if the swamp on a ML barrel somehow acts the same?
John
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2009, 02:15:27 AM »
With barrel tuning on the Browning Boss, the velocity was a considation.  To exit the muzzle at a certain spot in the harmonic wave, I'd speculate that the velocity (time in the barrel) must be a part of the equation. 

With muzzleloaders we are  careful to produce uniform loads and small variations in velocity for a reason.

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Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 04:44:27 AM »
Gus...

     I've also had a background working with precision, modern rifles, similar to yours and I've often thought of the points you bring up.  But I've always come back to the same idea that it's kinda apples and oranges when comparing with longrifles.  We take great care in bedding a modern rifle action (glass or aluminium) and making sure the barrel is free floated.  This is done primarily because of the barrel harmonics, realizing that the barrel's going to react the same way shot to shot.  The big thing is not to have any part of the stock touch the barrel, interfering with harmonics and effecting accuracy.  Hence composite stocks that don't shrink and swell like wood stocks, potentially touching the barrel at different points depending upon climate, etc...
     Longrifles touch the barrel pretty much the whole length, their made of wood, and swell and shrink depending on the season.  I'm thinking that would effect harmonics.  I guess my point with all of this is that I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts, if my rambling makes any sense...

           Ed
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 05:29:38 AM »
The problem is the various different alloys used for ML barrels. From skelp welded iron barrels, cast steel of unknown (even to the maker of the steel) alloys, mild steels of the late 1800s, modern steels in the 10xx, 11xx, 12xx, 86xx and 41xx families with a wide range of annealing or not annealing perhaps at various points in the same barrel. The "modern" HV rifle barrel, the military stuff anyway is made of about the same alloy with about the same heat treat. So we are into apples and watermelons here so far as trying the figure all this out in relation to a ML rifle.
Back in the 60s everyone was kinda hung up on dead soft barrels. But today we find that fairly hard barrels like 1137 or 4140 will work too. But 1137 GB quality and 4140 GB are a little more uniform than some of the other stuff like maybe mill run 1018 hot rolled or cold rolled.
So when you get all the heat treat and alloy variables figured out (assuming this is possible) you can start on the other variables, bore size, powder charge, vent size, barrel length etc etc.

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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 06:16:06 AM »
My thought is the scale of harmonics adjustments in a highly specialized modern rifle is not perceptable among much  larger inaccuracy factors in  muzzleloaders. considerably shorter ranges. 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 12:23:33 PM »
     Longrifles touch the barrel pretty much the whole length, their made of wood, and swell and shrink depending on the season.  I'm thinking that would effect harmonics.  I guess my point with all of this is that I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts, if my rambling makes any sense...
           Ed

Ed,

Your thoughts aren't "rambling" and do make sense. 

Swelling and shrinking of the forearm of a longrifle in different seasons and more importantly differing amounts of humidity will affect accuracy, especially when the stock swells and shrinks enough to put greater or lesser pressure at different points along the barrel.  (That's why I cringed when I read some folks don't seal the stocks under barrels on some longrifles.)   Now you won't see it affect accuracy as much with larger sized barrels for each bore size as there is enough mass of metal in the barrel to somewhat overcome the twisting force applied by the fore end.  Also, fore ends on long rifles tend to be rather thin and the thinner they are, the less pressure they will apply with changes due to humidity or temperature.

Muzzleloading gun builders and armorers often talk about not taking the barrel out of a finished long rifle or full stocked gun and leaving it out of the stock for any length of time (especially in humid weather) as the fore end can really warp or twist.  (That's great advice and something I stick to as well.)  When that happens and especially if you have to steam the fore end to get it straight enough for the barrel to go back in, it can set up some seriously bad pressure points and negative nodes of vibration in the barrel. 

However, my SWAG is that with most long rifle barrels and fore ends that are well sealed, we don't see a great deal of problem with negative nodes of vibration from even a well fitted tight barrel to stock fit nor the pins used to hold it in the stock.  (This is with a sealed fore end and a fore end that was not twisted or warped to get it back on the barrel.) The pins don't apply that much pressure.   I believe it acts more like when we firmly attach things to the barrel so they can't set up a worse negative vibration.  An example would be when we glue the handguards on a NM Garand vs allowing them to move during recoil.

In NSSA competition, they allow glass bedding the barrel for the full length of the fore end and that definitely helps accuracy and keeps the fore end from putting negative pressure points on the barrel.  I know most people don't do that with long rifles, but a well fit stock channel and seasoned stock that has been sealed correctly can come very close to fitting like a glass bedded rifle and give almost to virtually the same performance, especially if you are only shooting at 25 or 50 yards.

At the 1996 World Championships at Wedgnock, England, we had a couple of days of mild to heavy rains during the practice days.  The shooters and guns were under overhead shelter, but the humidity level went way high along with fog in the mornings.  That DEFINITELY changed where the rifles were hitting and grouping and that included original and reproduction rifles with full and half stocks as well.  (International competition for rifles is fired at both 50 meters offhand and 100 meter offhand and prone ranges, in different matches.)

They decided to give out the medals won in competition every day instead of giving them out all at the end of competition.  I think it was the second night that we stood in the rain for about two to three hours while they gave them out.  I had a polypropylene rain jacket and pants on, but still wound up with a nasty case of hypothermia thanks to the fact I got a bad case of malaria years ago and it comes back almost every year.  When we got back to the Hotel, I didn't socialize and went straight up to my room.  Well, I couldn't get warm enough, so I came back down to get something hot to drink.  That's when I overheard a couple of our shooters talking about how they took the barrels out of their stocks to let the stocks "dry out" and in one case, with the room fan blowing on it.   (One was a long rifle replica and the other was an original 1858 Sergeant's Rifle.)   OH MY GOD!! I thought.  They didn't seem that concerned and these were GOOD shooters with years of ML experience and many medals to their credit.  I badgered them enough until they went back upstairs with me to look at the rifles.

Sure enough, even with the barrels only having been out of the stocks for less than an hour, they were already beginning to warp and twist,due to the moisture in the wood.  I had to use toilet paper to dry out the barrel channels as best I could and we barely got the barrels back in the stocks.  Then I asked them when they HAD to shoot for score and fortunately, they didn't have to shoot the next day.  I told them not to shoot the rifles the next morning, but to try a couple sighter shots the next late afternoon.  The rifles were still "a bit hinky" late that afternoon, but the stocks had "re-normalized" enough by the next day they shot on call.  Had they fired the rifles for score the following morning and not waited until the second morning, the rifles would not have shot well at all.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 08:31:32 PM »
There is no difference between ML & modern bbls when it comes to how they react to vibration; the primary difference is with the operating pressure and bearing surface of the projectile.

The number of bbl to stock attachment points does have a direct affect on the frequency and amplitude shifts just as does the exterior profile and variations in the bbl wall thickness along with contact or lack thereof with the stock wood including its unique properties; sight type, weight, location and installation method.

For one to sit and calculate a solution of X for an rifle and claim that it is "optimum" is total horse pucky because it will only be "optimum" for a single given set of parameters - in other words the alleged optimum would require specific tolerances on: the bbl from the alloy to the manufacturing; powder burn rate; powder charge; bearing surface of the bullet; bullet alloy; parameters of the stock material and not to mention the ambient environmental conditions like temperature and atmospheric pressure.

Starting from the beginning, the first condition you have to deal with is vibration and ignoring all external factors and causes, let's assume that it starts when the sear releases (fact of the matter is that ambient noise, thermal energy, air movement, gravitational disruptions, electromagnetic variations and so forth have already set-up vibration within the gun long before the sear trips anyway).  As soon as the lock components begin moving, they are transmitting vibration through the action, stock and barrel.  Firing pin contact with the primer or flint contact with the frizzen starts a whole new set of vibrations as does ignition of the primer/pan charge, ignition of the main charge, first movement of the projectile and subsequent travel of the projectile down the bore.  Then you have to figure in the annular pressure waves created as the primer and main powder charges ignite and burn along with the corresponding variations of the burn process in relation to the friction of the projectile that cause a multitude of individual annular pressure waves.  There is no one single event but rather an almost infinite number of individual events that combine and cancel each other based simply on random chance as to where they happen to meet/pass and at what amplitude they happen to be at when they pass.

The easiest way to describe this is with a guitar.  If you pluck the string at various points between the anchors, you'll immediately note the change in tone from low to high or high to low depending up where and when you initiate the next set of vibrations.  There is no difference between that string and a gun barrel because everything changes with every shot and also changes during the duration of a single shot.  The talk of "optimum" and "harmonics" is not a science but rather tuning that based on averages just as tuning a musical instrument.  For any given "note" on say a piano, the exact frequency of that particular note is going to vary each and every time the string is struck with the hammer because it is impossible to repeatedly create the exact same strike.  The same applies to a gun because despite how carefully you weigh each powder charge or select each component, every single one of them is slightly different and thus it becomes nothing more than playing a game of averages so the best thing you can do is completely forget about the word "optimum" as it relates to barrel length or profile concerning vibration (the exception is optimum length for velocity vs. burn time and so forth but not concerning accuracy as related to vibration)

When it comes to the alloy used for the barrel itself, yes, every alloy will show distinct differences in the manner in which they react to vibration with harder alloys being better conductors of vibration than softer alloys.  The hardness of the alloy also affects the average vibration amplitude with harder alloys maintaining a higher residual amplitude than softer alloys.  Now, before the "soft alloy" folks start with the "see, I told you so's" ... the softer the alloy, the higher the amplitude of the annular pressure waves and the lower the amount of pressure that is required to reach the same amplitude for barrels with a similar wall thickness and profile so forget the hard vs. soft argument because it becomes a moot point when examining the complete picture.  While we're on this, let's dispel the rumor that leaded alloys are better - leaded alloys still transmit vibration and annular pressure waves and the amount of lead in the alloy isn't sufficient to cause a significant change in anything other than how easily the alloy cuts with tooling - the extremely low lead content acts as nothing more than a cutting edge lubricant.  Thus, if you look at something like a metal bar xylophone, you will see the mfg's tend to use the same alloy but vary the length and width of the bars to achieve the desired average tone for the given bar based upon the average impact force, duration and bounce produced by the mallet.  In effect, if one so chose to do so, the perceived tone can be duplicated using bars of the same size and shape but being constructed from different alloys and utilizing different contact and impact points.

Yes, there are both fixed and variable "node points" on any barrel; fixed being a stock/sight anchor point and variable being those set up by the particular parameters of the induced vibration and these points vary not only with the load but from shot to shot and in correlation to the ambient conditions at the time the shot is fired. 

The stock itself has its own unique affect of barrel response as well because five stocks cut from the same tree will have five different sets of parameters to them just as cutting a thousand barrels of the same type to exacting parameter will still show a thousand different harmonic profiles with each one being unique unto itself.

Another point that is often misstated, particularly in full-stock ML's, is the barrel length to stock-force relationship.  If one chooses to say the "optimum" barrel length is A yet another claims the optimum barrel length is B, one must consider the facts surrounding such claims and base the conclusion of averages on the individual construction and operational parameters.  If you anchor both ends of a solid round bar of say 44" and apply 2 pounds pressure to the middle of said bar, an accurate dial indicator will show a given amount of deflection opposite the direction of force.  If you then shorten that same bar to say 36" and apply the same 2 pounds of force to the center, the amount of deflection will be reduced showing a deflection reduction relationship corresponding to the reduction in length.  It is always interesting to watch the reactions when this is demonstrated and people see just how little force is necessary to cause considerable deflection even in what most would consider a "heavy" barrel.

Thus, as it applies to a long rifle with say a 44" barrel and you hear complaints of it shooting way off the assumed center of profile, the first thing that must be determined is if it is actually fault of the barrel or fault of the stock.  Just one ounce of force caused by the stock on the center of a 44" long bbl is enough to move the POI considerably 50 or 100 yards downrange.  Static force can also change in relation to the amount of binding that is taking place between the stock & bbl in that following the stresses applied during loading or firing can cause considerable variations in the amount of force being applied by the stock based simply upon where the stock just so happens to bind.

It doesn't matter it it's a modern gun or a traditional gun, the variations in dynamic and static forces applied to the bbl are in a constant state of fluctuation.  The more one can average out the external influences, the easier it is to find a load combination that is willing play within the dynamic response averages.  There are huge differences created every time you change any of external influences and external influences means everything from the stock to barrel interaction to the ambient atmospheric condition to the reaction of the particular load being fired.  Also, the external influences also include the amount of induced and applied thermal energy which can have a profound affect on even the best piece of stress-relieved steel because the stresses being applied are dynamic and not residual static stress.

Purely from the harmonics standpoint, the particular length of the barrel does not matter because it is the parameters of the load and barrel/action interaction with the stock that become the two primary determining factors after discounting ambient external conditions not directly related to the gun itself.  Testing done on a Winchester M70 featherweight chambered in .270win, a standard profile Remington M700 chambered in .300win mag and a standard profile Winchester M70 chambered in .30-'06 all produced a similar corresponding pattern of barrel movement based upon the primary determining factors.  Although there were distinct differences in both the amplitude and frequency movement associated with different rifles, the basic pattern of movement associated with similar mechanical changes made to each rifle proved to be predictable to the point of becoming boring.

The amplitude and frequency shifts produced very similar patterns with the action being anchored to the stock without any bedding as they did when the action was bedded with a given compound provided the barrel remained free-floating.  Despite the distinct differences in barrel profiles, bedding the barrel with a hard-setting compound produced increases in frequency of the vibrations just as did bedding the action with a hard-setting compound but the difference in amplitude direction changes proportionally when the barrel itself was bedded.  Likewise, bedding only the action with a the vibration absorbing compound corresponded to reduction in both the amplitude and frequency of vibrations within the free-floated barrel.

When it comes to a full-stock like a long rifle, the almost infinite number of variables related to the barrel / stock interaction all have a direct affect on the actual consistency of accuracy however ML barrels are not exempt from physics.  Two distinct advantages one sees in a tradition long rifle is that more often than not, the projectile of choice is the round ball that has the shortest bearing surface of any projectile.  Subsequently, the low frequency black powder propellant combined with the PRB produces operating pressures that are considerably lower than what we commonly see in a centerfire rifle and thus the amplitude of resultant annular pressure waves is also reduced.  Another benefit is the considerably higher barrel mass as compared with a modern CF rifle.  However, despite the benefits of the typical long rifle, the barrel is still susceptible to both vibration and annular pressure waves that will affect accuracy.

If we discount the affects of annular pressure waves and vibration within the long rifle barrel, why then do we talk about the "sweet spot" load?  Answer is simple, the "sweet spot" is that point at which the particular load ejects the ball from the muzzle at the correct time when the muzzle is in roughly the same position within the same plane - yep, same thing the CF shooters do.  It is the inherent advantages of the typical long rifle design and materials that creates the sweet spot that is normally quite wide.  Also, if one works with enough loads, a pattern can be established with most any long rifle where it will have two or more sweet spots for the same or different powder granulations.  The number and width of the sweet spots correspond directly to all the combined factors.  A 15/16" OD .50 barrel 28" long will often have numerous rather wide sweet spots just as a swamped barrel that is 42" long thus proving barrel length and profile is not a reliable factor in determining the given results of actual live firing.

In reference to your last post, if the stock is using the barrel as a reinforcement, the subsequent stress induced into the barrel changes the parameters of how that barrel will react to the dynamics of the vibration and annular pressure waves associated with firing the shot.  Thus is why an independently stabilized stock combined with a set pre-load being applied to the barrel increases the consistency of barrel response.  Consistency is only half the battle because in addition to consistency, the more the amplitude and frequency of the response can be reduced, the less limited the sweet spot becomes. 
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 10:44:02 PM »
FL-Flinter,

Wow, thanks for typing all that out.  I'm not an engineer, but I followed most of it. 

I'm aware that comparatively small pressures put on the barrel or things that are attached to or acting upon the barrel, can cause dramatic shifts in the accuracy of a rifle, especially at long range. 

I'm also aware that making barrels heavier (for the same caliber and ammo) will help accuracy only to a point when you reach a certain weight for that caliber and load.   After that, an even heavier barrel does nothing to the practical accuracy in some rifles, depending on the type rifle,ammo, pressures, etc. 

Thanks again for typing all that out.




jwh1947

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2009, 08:12:58 AM »
I'm no physicist, but have spent time building and servicing a lot of M1's.  It's been hinted at above, but I would think that pressure has to be a variable of significance.  Also, barrel tennons and construction are so different between muzzleloaders and modern rifles that it would seem reasonable to assume that the possible variables have different values, or degrees of impact; the laws of physics are one in the same, but one type of rifle may have one norm and variance dependent on certain physical principles and another type of rifle may be more sensitive to another subset of physical principles. 

Common sense suggests that anything that bounces around and could tap or touch a barrel differently with different shots is going to affect accuracy.  For instance, we refrained from handling our match rifles by the front handguard, even after taking the time to screw them fast and grind down the tang of the gas cylinder to keep it from from touching the front guard.  All of these things can change your zero.  The standard NM course consists of 200, 300 and 600 yard shooting, and our guns had to be bullseye tight at 1000 yards or they were outclassed from the outset.  I do not profess to be an authority on this matter, but it is something we took into serious consideration when we were match shooters.

 Another issue is heat.  Our formula was 5 degrees increase per shot and you can get an M1 so hot that the oil in the handguards will burst into flames.  We took a shot-out M1, prior to rebarreling it, and lit her up just to prove that this was true; it is.  Most of you have probably seen the movies of Browning .50 machine guns being shot until the barrel turns red, then white, then sags and the next shot blows it off.  It is physically impossible to develop heat in a muzzleloader anywhere near what we experienced on a daily basis with our M1's and M14's.  How does this fit in? 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2009, 10:05:16 AM »
I want to honor my promise to Daryl not to talk too much about modern rifles.  Suffice it to say a couple things.  There are all kinds of things that hang off a Garand and M14 barrel that set up pressure points and negative nodes of vibration. That's why we glued handguards, screwed gas cylinders down tight, etc. - but we also found out that on the M14 when you screw the flash suppressor on too tight, it will mess up accuracy.  IOW, tight enough to sort of keep everything vibrating together, but not too tight to mess up the waves too badly.  We don't have those kinds of pressures or exceptionally large pieces of metal hanging on a muzzleloading barrel and some of them setting up other gas operation functions.

We just don't fire our muzzleloaders fast enough to see the barrels heat up and lose accuracy as in modern rifles.  We usually don't fire them any faster than is done in slow fire competition in modern rifles.  If we leave the rifle in the hot sun to really warm up before shooting it, that will cause a change in point of impact and most likely some degradation in accuracy.  If powder containers are in direct hot sun, it can heat up the powder and that will affect accuracy.  Now, I doubt powder in a horn is going to heat up that much when it is on your person, but powder in a flask or can left in the sun will warm up notably.  I don't have actual data or test results that show very warm BP will shoot differently, but we had loads of data on how cartridge cases left in the sun and warming up at various temperatures affected accuracy.

Even at most reenactments where we fire flintlock muskets more often and faster than was done originally, the barrels can get very warm and uncomfortable to handle.   Of course we weren't firing live rounds, so I have no data on just how much that faster firing would have affected accuracy.  There was only one "battle display" where the barrels got seriously hot. 

We used to do a demonstration of a Rev War skirmish in front of the National Archives in Washington, DC on the 4th of July.  NOBODY "took a hit" or "died" at those skirmishes because you would be laying on 120 - 130 plus degree hot asphalt.   One year we demonstrated the "Highland Drill" skirmish tactics at the start of the skirmish.  We were using repro Brown Bess muskets.  We fired so fast and so much the barrels got so hot they really hurt.  After the skirmish, I wiped off my barrel and noticed some rather strange discolorations on the barrel in three places.  Turns out is was skin from my hands that was burnt and stuck to the barrel. 


 

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2009, 05:06:42 PM »
Lets not forget that barrel harmonics are influenced mostly by the load that is fired in that barrel. All of the modern tuners and such are an attempt to bring the barrel in sync with the load, whereas muzzleloaders and handloaders attempt to get the load in sync with the barrel. I don't know that a small change in load will have much effect on a barrel, but if WILL have an effect on the time that the bullet leaves the muzzle. If the bullets exits the muzzle when the barrel vibrations are toward the center of vibration pattern, you have found the pet load. If the bullet exits at other points in the pattern you may or may not have found an accurate load. Over the years of fooling with these things I have concluded that this may be a large factor that can make a rifle "fussy" about the load it likes. I think that is also why, all else being equal, a heavier barrel tends to shoot more consistently than a lighter one.
Either that or maybe the phase of the moon.

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 06:09:12 PM »
This is all a bunch of hocus pocus.   A vibration is a mathematically defined wave. Meaning it is repeatable measureable and defined.  In a perfect rifle barrel it matters not one wit where a bullet/load comes out along the curve of the waveform for accuracy purposes as it will always set up the same vibration and exit at the same point in the curve.  Theoretically the accuracy should be the same for loads that come out at the top of the node as the one that exit the barrel at mid or quarter wave length.   Now surely bullets that leave at different points along the wave will have different points of impact.  But we are strictly talking same barrel same loads should cause the same vibration and leave the barrel at the same point in the wave.

Of course few things are perfect in this world and certainly gun barrels aren't one. And we REALLY complicate things by attaching barrels to stocks with mechanical devices that impart their own vibrations etc to the gun.

But, in my experience wearing out 4 barrels on match guns I will say that FAR more critical than the load is the quality of the barrel.  Barrels made with lots of stress in them will generally be less accurate than barrels without stress.  This is because as the metal heats up  can cools down it expands and contracts and the little manufacturing stresses imparted to the metal during fabrication will expand and contract unevenly and therefore warp or otherwise distort the barrel.  This CHANGES the vibrational pattern of the barrel an IMO results in the MOST gun to gun accuracy variation of all things. 




Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 09:01:40 PM »
For what it is worth.

Remington continued to offer black powder cartridge rifle barrels made from trip-hammer forged wrought iron barrels for some years after using steel barrels in these rifles.
There was a faction in the market who felt that the dead soft wrtought iron barrels did not "whip" during firing as steel barrels were thought to do.  The dead soft wrought iron being thought to bulge in response to the pressure wave without effecting other portions of the barrel.

Bill K.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 09:22:18 PM »
Just scratching the surface on this as I have, I firmly believe a person could spend their whole life on it and still have plenty left to learn.  The industrial aspect of vibration and pressure study has been ongoing for over a century yet the repair shops are still busy fixing failures.  The biggest benefit lately has been the sensitivity of test equipment and the computer speeds necessary to capture it and convert it into usable data.

Thermal energy is a major contributor not only to shifts in the POI but also in the way steel responds to the vibration and annular pressure waves.  It's like putting water in a rectangular pan, when you induce motion energy into one side of the pan, the energy waves travel to the other side and come back again - that is how the vibration and annular pressure waves traverse the barrel and such is why adding something like a bayonet or break to the muzzle end can have a profound affect on accuracy.

It doesn't take a lot of thermal energy to cause grouping/POI issues and the biggest culprit is uneven heating/cooling of the barrel.  If you take a piece of black iron pipe and heat one side with a rose bud, you can watch it warp hard to the cold side - a gun barrel is nothing more than an expensive piece of fancy pipe.  Thermal energy induced from firing is applied evenly, the problem comes from the un-even cooling caused primarily by the stock and anything else that's not part of the nominal barrel profile such as under lugs and sights.  Every point where the barrel is disrupted creates another thermal issue either in the form of rapid cooling or increased mass retaining heat energy longer.  In terms of actual heat energy, any differential in temperature can have a affect on POI/grouping but it normally requires a marked change in POI before one begins equating the problem to heat.  Though it wasn't extremely scientific testing, laying a browned ML barrel on the sand bags for just five minutes created a 4°F temperature differential between the side exposed to the sun and the opposite side.

I have a couple graphs compiled from testing data showing the reaction of modern rifle barrels to vibration and annular pressure waves on my website and more available via email if interested.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 08:07:39 AM »
This is all a bunch of hocus pocus.   A vibration is a mathematically defined wave. Meaning it is repeatable measureable and defined.  In a perfect rifle barrel it matters not one wit where a bullet/load comes out along the curve of the waveform for accuracy purposes as it will always set up the same vibration and exit at the same point in the curve.  Theoretically the accuracy should be the same for loads that come out at the top of the node as the one that exit the barrel at mid or quarter wave length.   Now surely bullets that leave at different points along the wave will have different points of impact.  But we are strictly talking same barrel same loads should cause the same vibration and leave the barrel at the same point in the wave.

Of course few things are perfect in this world and certainly gun barrels aren't one. And we REALLY complicate things by attaching barrels to stocks with mechanical devices that impart their own vibrations etc to the gun.

But, in my experience wearing out 4 barrels on match guns I will say that FAR more critical than the load is the quality of the barrel.  Barrels made with lots of stress in them will generally be less accurate than barrels without stress.  This is because as the metal heats up  can cools down it expands and contracts and the little manufacturing stresses imparted to the metal during fabrication will expand and contract unevenly and therefore warp or otherwise distort the barrel.  This CHANGES the vibrational pattern of the barrel an IMO results in the MOST gun to gun accuracy variation of all things. 

I don't know of any testing done on ML rifle barrels, but it has been definitely proven with very precise testing equipment in modern rifles that bullets leaving the muzzle at the bottom of the wave are more accurate. 

I agree that quality of the barrel steel and the amount of stress in a barrel makes a HUGE difference if the barrel steel or inherent stress is not good.  I admit I sort of forget about that because the NM barrels I'm used to using almost always are of very high quality steel and properly stress relieved.   

The one time on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team that the barrel steel was no good was when the barrel maker ordered quality steel for the barrels, but was shipped some low grade steel with a lot of sulphur stringers in it.  The barrel maker did not know this and bored, reamed, rifled and finished the barrel.  After we properly mounted and chambered the rifle, it blew up.  Both the front and rear of the barrel opened up like a banana.  The M14 receiver shattered.  Unbelieveably, the shooter only suffered minor abrasions to his face and some slightly more than minor lacerations to his left hand and arm, though he did pull a piece a broken stock out of his arm that had not gone in real deep.  As part of the official investigation, H.P. White thoroughly inspected the pieces of the rifle and determined it was the fault of the sulphur stringers in the poor grade steel.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 03:12:38 PM »
This topic is so far to the left of building flintlock rifles that I can't believe it is still going on.  I wonder if Herschel, Frank and John thought about harmonics when they forged that barrel for the CLA rifle that was chanced off?  We're talking
about primitive weapons here, with open sights.   It's surprising how well they shoot, even tho harmonics have never
entered the picture when building them.  It's also surprising that, even if we don't consider harmonics, if we should put a
good scope on these guns how amazingly accurate they are........why is that?               Don

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 03:36:47 PM »

The one time on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team that the barrel steel was no good was when the barrel maker ordered quality steel for the barrels, but was shipped some low grade steel with a lot of sulphur stringers in it.  The barrel maker did not know this and bored, reamed, rifled and finished the barrel.  After we properly mounted and chambered the rifle, it blew up.  Both the front and rear of the barrel opened up like a banana.  The M14 receiver shattered.  Unbelieveably, the shooter only suffered minor abrasions to his face and some slightly more than minor lacerations to his left hand and arm, though he did pull a piece a broken stock out of his arm that had not gone in real deep.  As part of the official investigation, H.P. White thoroughly inspected the pieces of the rifle and determined it was the fault of the sulphur stringers in the poor grade steel.

Thank You

But boy can this be a can of worms here. Heh heh.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 04:30:53 PM »
To expand on the can of worms thing.
"Stringers".
This occurs with any steel with high levels of lead or sulfur or phosphorus etc. All used to make steel machine easier by lubricating the cutter. But it greatly weakens the steel *in relation to internal pressure* when it forms inclusions as it always does. Steels with high levels of these materials are invariably brittle, free machining steels.

This is why its more difficult to get gun barrel quality or better steel. They don't make it from just any scrap that arrives on a railroad car. The steel is more carefully made and tested to assure a low level of flaws and inclusions and then certified.  This takes more precise control of the process and it costs a lot more.
Small barrel makers  have to pool their order to get enough tonnage to even buy the stuff in most cases. Bigger makers can order an entire lot, Colt for example is making 800 M4 carbines a day right now.  I do not know the precise alloy used but its not full of inclusions I can assure you. Anyway whoever is making the M4 barrel is using a lot of steel.
The harder alloy steels are much more difficult to machine, wear cutters faster, it does not like to cut smooth and cut rifled 4140 barrels usually require lapping and a premium, swamped or tapered ML barrel made from GB quality 4140 is going to cost 350-500 bucks.
<Portions deleted, again>

Dan
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »
Quote
in modern rifles that bullets leaving the muzzle at the bottom of the wave are more accurate.

Ahh, but when one poses the question of "why" relative to the above statement the waters of debate become very murky unless one looks at the whole and not just a select portion as the cake cannot be iced if it is not yet baked.

As I alluded to earlier, one can argue the parameters of a modern rifle till the cows come home but the distinct difference between the modern and traditional world are quite numerous although I can't help but chuckle when the physics of accuracy are discounted while the majority of chunk and other paper shooters continue to focus solely on the barrel or load ... but there's plenty of tail-chasing on the modern side too.  

This all boils down to physical deviation of the barrel resulting from firing and the down range results thereof.  Knowing that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, it is rather easy to determine that any action of or upon the gun creates a reaction in the gun.

First, the transmission of vibration through materials differs in relation to that material whereas the following examples can be shown in m/s:
Air - 344
Water - 1,372
Iron/steel (common) - 5,182
Wood, hard - 4,267

As with everything else, the above are nothing more than mere approximations because of the extensive number of variables such as, vibration wave propagation through air at sea level differs in air at 10,000 feet above sea level just as the propagation of vibration waves through 12L14 differs greatly from that of 4140.  On the same note, modern smokeless powder burns at a much slower rate than that of black powder and with every different burn rate comes a completely different reaction in the gun based upon the inherent frequency induced by the burn rate.  With that in mind, one must consider that black powder produces low-frequency while something like TNT produces a considerably higher frequency.

The vibration frequency produced by the propellant is just one pixel of the picture as one must also consider that the projectile moving through the bore is acting like the slide on a steel guitar and is acting directly upon how the vibration and pressure wave propagation.  A copper jacketed conical bullet has a completely different attenuation profile than a PRB or a naked lead conical bullet.  Furthermore, the bearing surface of the projectile also plays an active roll in that the larger the bearing surface, the more the attenuation factor increases.  

If one looks at the bulk of vibration testing as it relates to industrial applications, the focus is on identifying the particular harmonic range(s) that can cause a functional or catastrophic failure related directly or indirectly to the specimen being tested.  The majority of these tests are conducted using a linear symmetrical generator that applies stable sinusoidal waveform to the specimen thus compiling the test data based solely upon a single or collection of single stable oscillation frequencies.  What these tests do not provide is a concise picture of how the induced stable generated waveform will react with all the secondary and ambient conditions associated with the given application.

As this relates to guns, every single shot is unique unto itself as there is no manner possible, beyond that of random chance, to generate the same exact conditions, actions and reactions from one shot to the next.  Thus, as stated before, one cannot make a determination of anything based on anything more than the law of averages.  

Making the assumed claim that "bullets leaving the muzzle at the bottom of the wave are more accurate" is based purely on the law of averages as they relate to the cause of random chance.  No matter if ML or modern, the commonality between both is the manner in which the barrel responds to the shot.  Of all the test results I have examined, the "bottom of the wave" claim is based primarily upon modern rifles with glass-bedded barrels.  If one wants to apply this same claim to a traditional ML, the basis can be made that the full stock and attachment points of stock to barrel produce similar condition as does glass-bedding a modern rifle and one cannot base the assumption upon downrange data without considering the physical facts of what happens before the projectile exits the muzzle.

Utilizing the static at-rest position of the muzzle as the zero reference point is what paints a clearer picture of why the "bottom of the wave" claim is made.  A barrel that is completely free-floated is still subject to the action of vibration and pressure waves related to the air gap between barrel and stock.  Air can be compressed but it also transmits energy and creates resistance at the same time.  Thus, when the waves pass over the gap as they traverse both barrel and stock, there is action and reaction bridging the barrel channel air gap and thus creating changes within the barrel.  When the barrel is placed in solid contact with the stock be either the manner of mounting as in a long rifle or via glass bedding in a modern rifle, a completely new set of conditions arise in that the resistance to movement on the bottom half of the barrel is considerably increased while the top half remains unchanged.  Thus, the condition is created where the displacement of the muzzle is greater in the upper vertical plane than in the lower vertical plane resulting in the law of averages producing the condition where the physical area of displacement of the muzzle in the lower vertical plane is simply smaller.  Subsequently noted is the considerable increase in the average frequency associated with glass bedding either, or both, the action and barrel.  Another consideration is the ability of the materials themselves to not only transmit but retain vibration energy.  Whereas a glass-bedded action and barrel combined with a hard composite stock material both transmits and retains far more vibration energy than an action and barrel that is attached and/or in direct contact only with common hardwood.

The ultimate goal is to reduce the affects of vibration and pressure waves as much as possible by reducing the amount and frequency of muzzle displacement in addition to reducing the amount of static muzzle displacement caused by random interaction between the action, barrel and stock.  Thus was the quest when I began developing Ultra-RVC.  Purely by design, the long rifle affords advantages in the reduction of both the amplitude and frequency of vibration but on the other hand suffers from the variable induced stresses caused by the random interaction between the barrel and stock.  
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 05:07:49 PM by FL-Flinter »
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Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 07:39:52 PM »
Gus (and everyone else)...

      Been away for a few days and just read through all the replys and thoughts.  Very interesting reading, but my heads spinning.  Don, as usual you're the voice of reason, lol.....

                              Ed
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eagle24

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 07:48:30 PM »
Well.......I hope it's not proven that 34" is the ideal length.  I'd sure hate to put the effort into building a southern rifle with a 34" barrel.  I still have a way to go with my flintlock shooting before I worry too much about harmonics anyway.

Offline Ben I. Voss

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Re: Question on barrel length and harmonics
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2009, 08:25:59 PM »
Wow! All this talk makes me want to grab a smooth-bore and a handful of buckshot and splatter something at about thirty feet! But then, that's just me.